BLM issues resolved?

Don't see how that would work, so no. Fed land is way too integrated into the areas I work, nothing would ever get surveyed

All lands, once privately owned but re-acquired by the Public, should require a State licensed surveyor to conduct all internal and exterior surveys, just as if those lands had remained in private hands. No unlicensed federal surveyors should be surveying anything but internal non-patented government lands, nor should they ever be allowed to have any influence or set monuments on ownership lines without holding the proper State License to practice Land Surveying.
jud

:good: :good: :good:

Very well said.:good:

It is hard to believe it is not like that........

BLM's statutory authority extends only to the relocation of public land boundaries, that is, lines that mark the boundary between public and private or other public land. The applicable statute limits the authority of the Department to "cause to be made * * * such resurveys or retracements of the surveys of public lands as, after full investigation, [the Secretary] may deem essential to properly mark the boundaries of the public lands remaining undisposed of." 43 U.S.C. § 772 (1988) (emphasis supplied). Thus, BLM's resurveying authority extends only to resurveying the boundaries of public lands. No like authority exists with respect to resurveying what are no longer public land boundaries since all of the surrounding land has passed into private ownership.

Since BLM lacks the authority to resurvey private land boundaries where, although originally surveyed under the rectangular survey system, there is no longer adjacent public land, it is clear that any action taken by BLM will not affect any such boundary. Rather, any action is properly regarded as being solely for BLM's own purposes. The act of accepting a corner as genuine is often taken to aid in the demarcation of distant public land boundaries. Thus, corners along section lines where the land on either side of the line has passed into private ownership are identified and used as "control points" (see Frank Lujan, 40 IBLA 184, 185 (1979)), and the line itself can be viewed as a "control line." See Wilogene Simpson, supra at 273.

JAMES C. BOUSSIOS
SONIA BOUSSIOS
IBLA 94-46 Decided September 13, 1994

I can only agree.

The survey of acquired or re-acquired lands is governed by the state laws in which the land is physically located.

BLM Casebook 1975, 2001 Rev.

Some thought that the CFEDS program was intended to address this requirement by meeting the licensure laws enacted by the states. Probably too good an idea to be put into widespread use.

I think it's hilarious that the BLM considers it a "resurvey" when they are tracing lines on the ground which they never surveyed in the first place, or in some cases, never even protracted on paper. I always was taught that those were called "original surveys".

That is interesting. Considering the millions of acres of private lands the BLM has resurveyed since 1994.

> I think it's hilarious that the BLM considers it a "resurvey" when they are tracing lines on the ground which they never surveyed in the first place, or in some cases, never even protracted on paper. I always was taught that those were called "original surveys".

This ties directly into what Keith has been working on; the resurvey of the subdivision of sections which, as claimed by many within the BLM, can only be done original survey methods (chapter 3). Yes, this is very illogical.

Interesting, but not surprising. Especially when considering how many of us have been taught that whatever the BLM does is absolute gospel when it comes to boundary surveying. I'd be willing to bet that there are many people inside many state BLM offices who do not know that the monuments and positions they determine on private land have no authority and are merely considered control points.

When "the BLM" is worshipped, is it any wonder "the BLM" has become so arrogant?

When they set section, quarter and 1/16 on private lands they have authority. Can't work any other way. You have only one section corner at the end of the day, otherwise it would be a chaos.

> When they set section, quarter and 1/16 on private lands they have authority. Can't work any other way. You have only one section corner at the end of the day, otherwise it would be a chaos.

Read the IBLA case cite I provided. It is very clear & I can provide more cites if you wish. The BLM Manual is very specific stating it also. The BLM has NO authority on private land. That therein is the rub, if they set mon's, now what??? What they set (or don't set, but use, as has been done around here) MAY be the best available evidence of the corner, or it MAY not be, but it holds no authority for patented land. [sarcasm]Hey, the BLM says it is so, so it must be true, huh?.[/sarcasm]

Chaos? Great public calamity? Didn't Cooley mention something similar along those lines??

I agree, yes, it can creat chaos. Have you read Erickson's articles in American Surveyor magazine?

BLM Surveyors Worshiped - not a chance?

Hey Brian, it has been over 19 years since I retired from BLM in Idaho. I can tell you I never felt that any of us were 'Worshiped." I was asked to give presentations to the annual conferences of the ISPLS and participated in the Boise area meetings. I always felt respected, but surely not worshiped. I know that was a tongue-in-cheek comment. And by the way Brian, I most often read your comments on any surveying subject and find myself in agreement with you on most issues. I know of no one with whom I agree on every issue.

Perhaps I can input a little of what was my view as a BLM Surveyor. The BLM is an easy target because those on the payroll will not respond. Maybe they are not allowed to except by official correspondence. That would make sense because with the hundred or so surveyors in BLM you would get different opinions just as you do from the ones on this board.

BLM, during my time, was sometimes, but not often criticized by the private sector. If the BLM had to run several miles across private sections to get control the option was to either set the intervening monuments or not. I have seen the letters come into the office either way. Most of the time the local landowners were in favor of having a monument set. Sometimes not.

I have seen letters come into the office wondering why if BLM was running the line they did not set the intervening monuments. Other times the letters have a complaint.

The BLM has many registered land surveyors working as cadastral surveyors. I was registered for the last 15 years of my career with BLM. BLM surveyors are generally very aware of the IBLA decisions and with the court decisions on land boundaries. For sure, those in supervisory positions are up to date on all the pertinent case law.

BLM personnel can argue surveying issues just as we in the private sector can. I have my own consulting business and am still active in surveying issues, but mainly those involving water boundaries. We in the private sector can criticize BLM as if it were a monolithic organization, when in fact, each State Office has its own authority and interprets the Manual and case law in its unique way.

Rather than throwing broad based insults at BLM it would be more productive and more informative to address a single case. The BLM where I worked has responded to complaints. I once changed a survey of mine because the private surveyor provided information that identified the corner position that was not of public record but which he had. I tried to contact local surveyors and I would assume it is still the practice of BLM surveyors to do so when doing a job. I have had my BLM surveys overturned by the courts and I have had my BLM surveys upheld by the courts. But most had no complaints.

I have seen BLM surveys approved that if I had been in charge would not have been approved. I have seen private surveys on record that I did not agree with. As we see on this board with the complaints about pin cushions, there are lots of opinions about land surveying.

Well, I am just rambling now, but while the BLM is not unblemished it, as an organization, does many good surveys. And they set a pretty decent monument and they have their notes and plats in the public record. And they provide a basis of bearing.:-)
my 2-bits worth.
Jerry

The BLM is as we speak surveying on private lands establishing authoritive monuments and have for decades. Here's one recent example, I don't think there is even a 40 acre BLM parcel in this township. I wouldn't change any of these BLM corners or the lots as they are laid out to some fence corner or occupation. Although I suppose you may if you wish.

BLM Surveyors Worshiped - not a chance?

Well, I agree with both of you. The BLM isn't worshiped per se, but it is to a certain extent. When a private surveyor comes across a BLM monument, it is a harder decision to discount it. (Well, maybe that's true with other monuments.) But the BLM personnel need to appreciate what they put the private surveyor through when they set a monument. It can be difficult to "argue" with a BLM Monument. It is an authority that is kind of above the private surveyor's pay grade so to speak. If you disagree with an approved survey, to a certain extent, you are disagreeing with a whole Federal Government agency, and not your buddy down the street that you occasionally see at seminars and have an occasional beer with. The BLM surveyors don't take responsibility for the monuments they set in that they don't put their license number on them and they don't have to sign and stamp a plat with which certifies their survey. The BLM survey is certified and approved by the agency.

But, on the other hand, from my experience the guys local BLM offices are usually easy to talk to and discuss problems with if and when you can catch them. They are usually surveyor just like us. They usually went to the BLM school and have gone through the same training that is offered by the CFeds Program. (someone might correct me if I am wrong.) Many of these guys are good, conscientious surveyors.

I guess with any agency, and with any private surveyor for that matter, you can find arrogance, and an unwillingness to listen. But my experience with the BLM has been overall positive.

Tom

BLM Surveyors Worshiped - not a chance?

Jerry,

Thanks for your informative post. I was not throwing broad based dispersions or insults at the BLM, and will not tolerate anyone saying I am, have, or was. Please don't put words in my mouth, I am quite capable of getting myself in trouble on occasion. I just want that to be perfectly crystal clear.
What I was addressing was the fact that many in the private sector, when stumbling upon a BLM monument (dependent resurvey/non-original), they instantly accept it without further investigation or questions, incorrectly believing that it is correct, soley because it has "BLM" stamped on it. Heck I used to be that "green".

I do however, have a few concerns with the BLM, for example:

> BLM personnel can argue surveying issues just as we in the private sector can. I have my own consulting business and am still active in surveying issues, but mainly those involving water boundaries. We in the private sector can criticize BLM as if it were a monolithic organization, when in fact, each State Office has its own authority and interprets the Manual and case law in its unique way.

This should be extremely frustrating for nearly every surveyor and landowner in the PLSS states. How can you have a wide variety of interpretations of a manual that, in many states, in codified as the "way to survey"? Why then hasn't each state created their own "modified" version of the manual? Why do we have to continue to guess at how they are interpreting it at any given time? Even more importantly, as you noted, many in the BLM are presenting at conventions preaching their own version instead of what the Manual and the IBLA actually say, causing many problems that they either are not aware of, or do not care about.
I can understand a few minor differences of opinion, but when it comes to the big issues, like bona fide rights, good faith efforts, and local corners like Keith has been addressing for quite some time now, why do some state offices (and apparently the DC office) not recognize what is written in plain black and white english in their own manuals? In fact, if you want to talk in person (Keith is aware of this situation), I can tell you about a few things that have transpired in Idaho over the past few years, and I'm sure even you would be dismayed.

> ... but while the BLM is not unblemished, it as an organization, does many good surveys. And they set a pretty decent monument and they have their notes and plats in the public record. And they provide a basis of bearing.:-)

Again I do agree mostly with what you have said, and have a good deal of respect for many of the BLM surveyors I know (even though I know they aren't quite as charitable about me and others on this board). But, like you acknowledged, there are problems just like in the private sector - in fact, overall, where I work, I would have to say the private sector needs to step it up even more than the BLM does.

It is too bad that many do not understand their basis of bearing 🙂

Brian