> How long would it take for average barbed wire to rust through? Most wire in the woods will break due to fallen limbs but I'm looking to date a barbed wire fence in ruin. Most of the wire travels directly through the middle of the tree to which it's attached and there are very few sections that actually connect two trees.
In Central Texas with about 30" of rain annually, it usually takes at least 100 years for barbed wire to rust enough to be compromised. If the wire was galvanized, then the wire should still be fairly sound.
The clues that wire has been recycled are that you see non-factory splices in the wire and different types of wire are used. five-strand wire fence is fairly standard in Texas.
I'm not sure that three-strands of wire would even be a legally sufficient fence. I assume that Pennsylvania has stock laws describing what constitutes a sufficient fence.
> I'm investigating a long-standing, time-honored line that may have ripened into a new boundary. The area in question is about 7 acres.
If you're trying to determine when the scraps of wire were attached to the trees, I wouldn't think there's any substitute for cutting a representative specimen down to count overgrowth rings. Choose a species that will tend to have rings that are easy to count.
Boring
Here's a link to Forestry Suppliers showing their "increment borers":
http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/search.asp?stext=increment%20borer
> I'm not sure that three-strands of wire would even be a legally sufficient fence. I assume that Pennsylvania has stock laws describing what constitutes a sufficient fence.
>
The typical barbed wire fence in this area is three strands. That is, the typical "woods fence." I've seen the five wire on posts but two are usually electric, one-strand wires. Barbed wire that runs through the woods usually points to a boundary. I see this three-strand trend as being correlated to our three notch witness marks. I've never seen a one or two strand. Usually it's three to five strands. I don't believe this fence to be for containing stock. Parole evidence implies it was for keeping the cows in but I'm not 100% on board with that. I suppose some might look at this fence and say, "That's no fence. It's remnants." I see it as landowners marking their line and eventually losing the ability to maintain it. The matron of the farm remembers hurting herself on the barbs when she was young and spry enough to frolic in the adjacent orchard.
> If you're trying to determine when the scraps of wire were attached to the trees, I wouldn't think there's any substitute for cutting a representative specimen down to count overgrowth rings. Choose a species that will tend to have rings that are easy to count.
Cutting a specimen would be quite an undertaking. I could have the attorney request a sample. We are preparing for litigation and every bit of evidence counts. I suppose most of the fence was destroyed by mother nature but the scars and intent remain.
I would borrow a chainsaw, though, because I'm not destroying my chain on that wire.
Boring vs cutting
I think I'd rather pay $40 for the bore than cut down a tree. This might become one of my tools. Thanks
One surveyor showed only the lines of possession. The other showed deed line and "line as surveyed by Mr. X." The current owner, as a younger man, actually helped maintain the fence.
The deeds come together like this: (The orange line is our deed line. Red is the surveyed fence. Blue is a survey line by others. Black is a parent tract for blue.
What difference would it make if it could be demonstrated that the fence(remnants) served a utilitarian purpose as opposed to marking a boundary? Say, excluding stock or deer from an orchard? Guess I'm just not sure how the age of the wire would demonstrate the intent of the fence, which seems to me the real question at the heart of the matter. Did it evidence a boundary agreement or just keep critters in or out.
That looks to be quite the hash!
Whose orchard? Does the use of the orchard have any bearing on an adverse possession claim?
pedanticism: It's not "Parole evidence," it's parol evidence unless it has to do with avoiding being sent back to prison.
There are approximately 450 patents for barbed wire and all but a handful date from 1875 - 1893, so patent date won't tell you much.
I've seen wire in relatively good condition that I know was at least 100 years old because the company that manufactured that particular design went out of business before the turn of the 20th century.
The best book on the market, by far, for identifying barbed wire is "Barbed Wire Identification Encyclopedia" by Harold Hagemeier
I finally gave up. There was a research project set up at Kansas State University about 1930 something where a variety of types of barbed wire were used to construct a series of short fences on a plot on a big hill just north of the main campus. Scientific analysis of negative activity was conducted annually for at least 65 years. I know this took place, but, I cannot find proof of it on the internet tonight. I believe the plot was removed in just the past few years to permit something else to happen. Professor Fred Fenton was involved for the first 40 some years, but even that detail didn't help to find anything reporting on the research.
Clearly, different results would occur in different areas of the country. Exposure to saltwater mist and acid rain would be negatives. Perennially dry conditions would be positive. Overstretching to cause diameter reduction would be another negative. The effects of tree sap would be interesting to know. Are they a good thing or a bad thing?
Now, I must admit chuckling at the idea of attempting to restrain livestock with a three-wire fence. None of my livestock would give it any respect. My standard is six-wire fence and in a small lot situation I have installed eight-wire fence. A three-wire fence would simply be a notice of claim of ownership.
Let me add kudos to Kent's statements.
If you are worried that the wire came from somewhere else look for splices. In our area of 30" of rain annually fences are so overgrown by brush and trees in 15 years the wire must be cut in places to extract it. Short spaces between random splices in the wires is a good sign that the fence has been moved.
While true that smooth wire was used prior to the innovation of barbed wire, barbed wire, having its origins from 1876-1880, is pretty old stuff itself.
I've spent 20 years trying to date wire by the Barbed Wire Books and conclude that it cannot be done. The best that you can do with the books is to identify the type and be able to throw the lingo around. The only dating that you can do from the books is the patent dates, which in 99.99% of the cases were before 1885.
In the same 20 years I've noticed that some fence wires are galvanized and some are not. The ones that are not are rusty and brittle. It takes a lot to rust through the zinc of galvanized wire.
There is another aspect to rusty v. galvanized. I've noticed that in northern Idaho any Homestead that was patented after 1910 has galvanized wire in its fences and these wires look almost like new. Homesteads before this time are bounded by rusty fences. Why? Why indeed, galvanized wire was an option from day one (1876).
Here is my opinion. A 160 Acre homestead had to be bounded by two miles of fence, plus another mile of cross-fences. The wire and posts were a bigger expenditure than equipment, barns or home and cost more than the land itself. Galvanized wire was more expensive, heavier and weaker (the heat anneals the wire and the zinc alloys the outer layer) thus the homesteader could realize a substantial savings with bare wire, which was cheaper, less freight and could span greater distances between fence posts. After 1910 it appears that only the galvanized wire was available. While my opinion is confirmed by a hundreds of observations, and I never found an exception, never-the-less it is difficult to "prove".
On the other hand it could just be that it takes a hundred years to electrolyze the zinc off of fence wire.
Either way, it can be safely stated in Northern Idaho that rusty fence wire without splices predates 1915. I've noticed about the same in Arizona, except that AZ wire which is in contact with the ground loses its zinc more rapidly.
When you have a fence with all strands being rusty and few splices, you don't need witnesses and testimony to establish that that fence is more than 80 years old, and is probably from the Homestead era; the fence speaks for itself. At least in Northern Idaho.
FENCE LINE TREES: After getting permission, cut the fence line tree down like a Tootsie Roll, one segment at a time, Cut between the strands and then split the segments with an ax to expose the wire and its ring count. Be sure to have witness, video and pictures.
Be aware that turgor pressure in a tree will push the ends of loose wires together. In other words, the ends of a loose wire that was originally north-south will appear as two wires entering the tree from either east or west, depending on which side of the heartwood the wire is stapled.
Chad Erickson
So a fence alone changes the boundary? My neighbor and I have a fence that is not on the line. We both know it. It is a fence of convenience. Have they been paying taxes on the area possessed? Is there any evidence that they have put the world on notice that this is theirs and theirs alone and if anybody else doesn't like it they can look up the barrel of a shotgun? And when the judge decides to just split the difference then what happens?
Damn autocorrect:-@
> What difference would it make if it could be demonstrated that the fence(remnants) served a utilitarian purpose as opposed to marking a boundary? Say, excluding stock or deer from an orchard? Guess I'm just not sure how the age of the wire would demonstrate the intent of the fence, which seems to me the real question at the heart of the matter. Did it evidence a boundary agreement or just keep critters in or out.
>
> That looks to be quite the hash!
I could rephrase that now that I have more insight and ask, "Has a boundary location ever been substantiated by dating barbed wire?" or "Is the date of the wire less important than when it was installed?"
This fence, allow me to explain, is by no means the kind of fence you would see on a ranch in Texas or some other cattle wrangling state. Something that has to hold in hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of potential dinners and breakfasts. There isn't post one. The fence goes straight up over a hill that some people would find impossible to scale let alone a cow.
The difference I see is this. If it's used for cattle and there are no more cattle, there is no need for the fence. Chance of said "fencer" getting the 7 acres: None.
If, however, it was used to mark a boundary, no matter if it's not where it should have been, and given the long standing evidence on the ground and lack of opposition, that possession line has successfully ripened into a time-honored boundary line to be memorialized. This takes the temporary nature of a grazing agreement out of the picture. That's the only solution I have for this issue that, without proper arbitration and negotiation, will end up in a courtroom.
There is a whole lot more to this issue than I've mentioned. I've received much information by asking a simple question and then blabbering on about what case I'm working. I'll say that I've learned that most of the barbed wire fences I've seen were not to hold in cattle. It's rare to find a fence with as many as 8 strands of wire all stretched nice and tight with anchors at the corners and splices fixing damaged areas. I find them but more often it's just down through the woods on trees and the occasional section of posts.
Through parol evidence, the orchard belonged to the fencing party. Apple and peach. The orchard will no doubt come into play. It's been said that at one time part of the area in question was used for cattle.
Here's another interesting question:
When you let pasture go back to woods, what's one of the first species of tree you will find?
I've heard that locust would be the first one to start the reclamation.
You can also look for weevil deformed pines, they are only present when the pine saplings were in direct sunlight, this can help you age the time of abandonment.
I highly recommend the book Forest Forensics by Tom Wessels.
