Thanks for the input everyone.?ÿ
Our proposal & contracts, for NY & PA, the states in which I am licensed & practice, specifically state that a release of an electronic copy of the survey is NOT included. If the client wants a CAD file, we prepare a different contract, and then we charge extra accordingly, and specifically state that a CAD file will only be released to a Licensed Engineer or Land Surveyor. We do NOT release an editable file to someone who is not licensed.
we do share paper copies of our surveys with other surveyors who share theirs with us, cooperation is always better. It's rare that the other surveyors would ask for electronic files, but we would surely consider that if they did. works both ways.
hope that this helps in some minuscule way. Dan Barry, NY & PA PLS
I rarely share cadd files with anyone unless it is a request from the client when they order a survey with the electronic data included.
A few surveyors share some of the information in the past, now it is lucky to get a copy of part of a drawing that shows their working layer and not the final drawing.
With GPS and the strength of today's TS and Robots, it is very easy to locate a few monuments to another tract and use public records to fill in the rest of their survey.
After doing that, if I see a problem with another's surveyors work, I notify them and say "you got a bug in your survey" and try and get them to share and lets work this out to both our advantages.
Many times, I simply tell someone that those files have been archived due to software change and are not accessible with my current system and other times it is a straight out NO.
I have sold cadd files in the past for the same price as I charged for the original survey when the client had approved to share the information. Other times the client strictly forbid any sharing of any information to whoever ask. The only exception to that is when a court has ordered a copy or your BOR asks for a copy. Everyone else is not on the list.
Somebody recently shared a 10 yr old survey with me. It came complete with coords. It was performed with rtk.
A critical point in that file had 2 shots on it. My coord turned out to be 5.5' from his. Yes, bad init.
Well, now, I've fd a mess up.
Put his file on grid bearings.
And cleaned up one end of a 1960's subdivision.
If he does more work there, I've solved a few problems, and I'll send it all back, in an improved condition. It is "value added". And, I can also give him a complete spc file.
Nate
I changed my CAD standards years ago to make it very difficult to share the good stuff.?ÿ Traverse and Boundary are XREFd in with one polyline for locus in the drawing.?ÿ Just about every drawing has an image.?ÿ I also send the file in a password protected ZIP with an Agreement.?ÿ At the bottom is the password.
Not difficult to share "good stuff", using Xref and unique CAD standards. Use the eTransmit package routine, to include all associated files.
I receive hundreds of files per year from Engineers, Architects, and Surveyors for construction projects. They follow many different CAD standards. Some of the survey drawings are the worst I've seen. For example, a recent survey DWG sent to me was on SPC. Without using Xref's they copy and pasted the CAD survey within the same Model. Added a border and title block. Also had years of other title blocks, notes, and misc crap scattered within the Model. Not sure which is worse, not using any Xref's or the cad operator binding all Xref's into the model.?ÿ When I request CAD files I tell them to leave it the original CAD state, do NOT explode, translate or save AS. Telling to use eTransmit.
What does your contract say about who owns the "data"?
Here is a standard Acceptance form:
By accepting and utilizing CAD files prepared by Company XYZ, it becomes the users responsibility to verify and confirm that such files are correct and ensure that they conform to all plan requirements.
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The information contained in this email message is intended only for use of the individual or entity named above.?ÿ If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.?ÿ If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at (315) 831-8175 and by email at lee@leegreen.com and destroy the original message.?ÿ Information contained in any signed and sealed ??hard copy? documents is to be deemed to be correct and superior to electronic information and unless stated otherwise, all files are considered preliminary.?ÿ This email is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986 codified at 18 U.S.C. 2510-2522 and the Stored Communications Act at 18 U.S.C. 2701-12.
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By accepting any digital files, electronic files or CAD drawings published by Company XYZ, you are hereby bound to the following terms and conditions unless an express exception is provided.?ÿ Any use of these files is at your own risk.?ÿ By accepting these files, you and your agents, as the user, agree to waive any claim against Company XYZ and you will defend, indemnify, and hold Company XYZ harmless from any claim or liability for injury or loss allegedly arising from any reuse of these files by you, as the user of any of your agents or , any third party that may use these files.
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The delivery of any CAD drawings should not be construed to provide an express warranty or guarantee to you, your agents or any third party that all dimensions and details are exact or to indicate that the use of said drawings implies the review and approval by Company XYZ of any future use.?ÿ Any use of said information is at the sole risk and liability of you as the user.?ÿ The release of these files to you does not authorize you to release or transfer these files to any other parties.?ÿ The transfer of any digital or electronic files does not transfer any license to use the underlining or associated software nor does it extinguish the rights of Company XYZ to reuse the information in the general course of professional practice
People share data, it is 2019. Have them sign a release of liability and move on. Most clients around here are putting electronic data into the contract as something they are directly paying for these days too. Again, liability release on electric data... Move on, unless you're worried about what you did.?ÿ
I agree with TNRLS. We live in a digital world today. Define the deliverable in the contract and send it. If you have nothing to hide, why strip data from the CAD file, before sending it to another professional.
I find there are land surveyors that want to keep it close to the chest. Some surveyors will leave no BM's, and no Baseline on the drawings. Not just the CAD file, I'm talking the paper and PDF drawings. Years ago this may have worked to help hold on to the project, forcing developers and contractors to call the original surveyor. Today I see the this as wedge pushing away from the original surveyor, giving us all a black eye. When I contact the original surveyor for this information, they tell me it was NOT called for in the original contract. Which it is B.S. This is an unethical practice of taking advantage of the client in an effort to secure future work.
Lee: this is why a detailed contract is a necessity. If the contract does not specifically recite the obligation to provide the data electronically, then a request to do so after the fact must result in an additional fee. And it is dangerous to release electronic editable data to other than a fellow licensed professional. just my humble opinion 🙂
Practically any project that is big enough to be passed on before it is complete, phased or not, requires Planning Board approval. That means publicly available surveys and construction plans, therefore the control is there for all the world to see. Horizontal control points on the survey and vertical control points on the site plans. Even if that control is stripped from a CAD file it can be reintroduced via actual setback dimension and vertical offsets. Because the info is record on the prior sealed paper drawings the prior professional can be legally liable if you get into extra expense because what you find is not what he said. If there might be an error in your drawings you are better of if another professional finds it before the owner puts it in the ground.
Paul in?ÿPA
Somewhat similar but not exact to OP's problem:
Asked by general contractor for our RAW data and internal field notes so their project surveyor could re-create our field work.?ÿ We had a contract for a sub on this project not with the GC.?ÿ The project surveyor was trying to cut down on some of their work so the GC put pressure on our client.?ÿ Our client in turn put the screws to us to provide these non-deliverables to the GC's project surveyor.?ÿ We were not cool with this but initially didn't a sound legal reason to not turn over the data.?ÿ Again our contract was not with the GC, it was with the Sub.?ÿ After much thought, we felt the ethical response was to notify the GC that turning over non-deliverable's would trigger an event that would require us to put our insurance on notice that we had been asked for propriety data.?ÿ
This was a honest response and it protected our scope of liability.?ÿ GC realized this was creating more problems then the data was worth and got off the sub's back.?ÿ I realize this was a different problem but maybe it will help in some way....good luck.
"re-create our field work"
Nope, that's never gonna happen unless I'm served a warrant to provide the files or my BOR asks for them.
Appears that most everyone around here has stopped exchanging information and forgot to send out a memo to that effect.
If you have nothing to hide, why strip data from the CAD file, before sending it to another professional.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I make mistakes on occasion while in the field.?ÿ I forget to change an HI, or get an offset direction wrong, or misdescribe something.?ÿ I catch most of these goofs while still in the field and enter a note to change the raw data back in the office, but every once in awhile I don't catch it until drafting the map.?ÿ In those instances I rarely go back and change the raw data, I just correct the map.?ÿ So I never list the survey point file as a deliverable, and I won't release a point file except to another professional with whom I have a good relationship, and when I do I obtain an indemnity agreement first.
