It has not happened to me (that I know of), but the NYC Building Department insists on the rubber seal ink and the signature being different colors.
I use red ink for the seal and blue ink for the signature. The copies are black and white.
The cover sheet of a cross-country pipeline was signed and sealed by me.
It was only a location map. The surveying company claimed they would tie
the pipeline to a land line every 1/2 mile minimum. They brought about
30 drawings to my office to sign. There was a tie to a survey monument
every six miles plus or minus. I refused to sign the drawings.
They took the drawings back to their office, make a sticky-back of my
signature and seal, and attached them to the 30 drawings.
Wow, what a nice client......
When did you bring Fraud charges against them?B-)
> I had to learn the hard way about the Alabama horror story. we performed quite a few surveys following the serial forger. No pins, no rhyme or reason for any of the work at all. He was using quite a few other seals and performing work in Georgia and Alabama. The Alabama work he sealed.....I don't think any of the work was actually "surveyed" though. Try arguing with a title company why you want them to use your description versus the serial sealer's fake survey!
There would be no argument with me. They would either use the real"corrected" descriptions or be facing fraud charges with the insurance commission and/or the A.G.'s office.B-)
In 11 years of signing plats, no. My dad had one about 10 years ago done. I actually did the survey on this tract, and they didn't like the fact that they'd built the house on the wrong tract, and my survey showed it wasn't there, and they found some OLD survey of my dad's with the RPS instead of RPLS seal and "manufactured" a survey that satisfied a bank. Then they got upset when we called their hand on it.
I couldn't tell you when my dad started it, but as long as I've been working here, we sign the plat in disappearing blue ink (you can't copy it but it will scan) and an impression seal with a statement that "IF THIS PLAT ISN'T SIGNED IN PALE BLUE INK AND THE SEAL PRESENT IN CRIMPED FORM, IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED AN UNLICENSED COPY AND PRESUMED TO CONTAIN ALTERED OR UNAUTHORIZED MATERIAL." I've had some title companies squeal at that statement but it ain't coming off. It's also on the field note description.
I don't use the foil like Kent does, not that it's wrong, I just don't do it, but embossing seals are EXCELLENT for keeping the crap down. Unless you rub it with the graphite, it doesn't show up. I get two to three calls a month about needing a signed and sealed copy and I ask them to read the last sentence in the notes. Then I tell them that we provided plenty of copies to the client but that I'll email them a pdf to get them going until the originals show up on their doorstep.
> I have had several documents altered and used by others
>
> In the mid 80's a lawyer began the practice of taking hardcopies and adding changes to make divisions to my drawings and property descriptions with the help of xerox copier to work around hiring and paying for the service
>
> A few choice phrases from some popular movies and to let him know that KARMA has made a visit in his life with pictures solved that problem
>
> One surveyor , now long past on, would take another's drawing and xerox the portion he was working on and add a line or two or three and put his signature and seal on to avoid drawing the entire subject again
>
> There was the case a few counties away around the same time where an unlicensed surveyor was using a dead man's seal to continue his career resulted in a trial and fines and an order to stop all surveying with no hope of ever becoming licensed.
>
> A little over 10yrs ago another lawyer began to make divisions on paper and was using my descriptions in an altered form to put in new deeds. I never saw any drawings or property descriptions with my name on them, I simply ran across deeds without surveys during my court house search. He did issue title opinions. A reminder of the need of an actual document to substantiate an actual survey put him in a possible bind that hopefully has stopped his habit.
>
> Those of mine and the cases I've been told of by others, always involve people that can easily afford to hire surveyors. The common thread always appears they are at a level of confidence that they think is bullet proof and who is going to call their hand.
>
> I've never had a problem in this digital world. I do not give out my entire digital drawing unless that was a part of the work order.
>
> On a typical sending of drawing info, I scrap the points and descriptions and let the receiver pick and choose from cad what they want to convert into coordinates. Mostly, I send a color PDF from cad or of a hardcopy
That wasn't in Marion County now was it? 🙂
I do something similar. Every plat has the following note right under the seal:
"This is not a true, certified copy unless the signature hereon is an original signing."
And I always sign in blue ink. And I NEVER copy my signature.
If a PE forges your seal in Georgia, you have my condolences
In 40 years of surveying I have about seen/heard it all, but the following is my personal nightmare:
I once worked with a Georgia PE in North Georgia for a few months. A year after moving back to Florida I learned my seal and signature had been forged onto a high dollar boundary survey in Atlanta, turned out by the PE's office. The map contained numerous errors. I suspect the field work was junk also. An Atlanta engineering firm tracked me down (to have me come back and correct my work), and even with my denials of knowing anything about the survey my initial involvement in the situation was one of being forced to answer for "my" negligent work. It became my burden to "prove" I had nothing to do with the survey. I filed a formal complaint against the PE with the Georgia Board even while I was under a cloud of "suspicion" by the authorities (including the local District Attorney who happened to have a personal relationship with the PE). Long story short...after about 2 years I received a letter from the Georgia Board informing me the PE was sending me a letter of apology, and if I was OK with his "apology" the case would be closed. As "explained" by the Board, the PE had been under a great deal of stress with family matters. If this PE was ever disciplined further by the Board I was never made aware, but I refused to participate in this sham of justice, and withheld my official acceptance of the apology. The Georgia Board had assigned the case a "medium" level of importance, and during the approximate 2 years it took the Board to act, the Georgia society (SAMSOG) had high level members present at Board meetings making sure this matter was not "forgotten". For awhile the client was pressing to have me pay to make them whole. Not a good feeling.
I made this comment short by fast forwarding over the nearly 2 years the matter took to play out, but I lost a great deal of money and time attempting to see some measure of justice. After 6 years and $5,000 paid to a Georgia attorney my Georgia license was finally reinstated (note: I remain skeptical, but will concede it is possible the actions precipitating this "inadvertent" loss of license were totally unintentional. Anyway, rather than file a new application and retake the exam, I chose to pay the money to an attorney to work on my behalf.).
My sincere condolences to any Georgia surveyor filing a complaint against a PE with the Board. The forging of your seal/name by a PE could complicate your life in ways you could not have imagined.
If a PE forges your seal in Georgia, you have my condolences
Now that is interesting.
My former boss, a PE, was the one who directed an employee to make changes on my survey without my knowledge.
I hope that our experiences with PE's is a rare occurrence. Most PE's that I know are true professionals and recognize that they are not land surveyors. Some think they are but most do understand the differences between engineering and land surveying.
This can be a subject of another post at some point in time.
JC
I did construction layout on one of the projects named in that list, but it was long before Mr. Harvel came along.
> Every plat has the following note right under the seal:
>
> "This is not a true, certified copy unless the signature hereon is an original signing."
>
> And I always sign in blue ink. And I NEVER copy my signature.
I've got to ask, though. What prevents a person from just whiting out the note? The same goes for notes that say something like: "Unless my seal is in red ink and my signature is in sexy hologram ink, this map may be a completely fraudulent forgery."
This is why I prefer the foil impression seal. It can't be copied without looking like a copy to just about any person of normal intelligence.
Yes
I was doing a very large amount of boundary work for a small engineering company about 8-10 years ago. Most of it was boundary surveys of property to be subdivided. We would do the boundary, the engineer would then do the design and grading plans, we would then do the construction layout, layout the lots and prepare the final plat. I never sent a digital file to them with my seal or title block. One day the PE and I had a phone convesation. I don't remember how it came up but he mentioned a final plat for a certain property. I had not prepared a preliminary or final plat for that one. The PE mentioned that his staff had prepared it for me. I asked him to please send a copy to me for my files. He did and what I saw shocked.
me. My seal and signature were on their title block. It was very obvious that my seal had been cut off of a paper copy of another plat and taped to the s/d plat. I could see the tape marks. I immediately went to a lawyer for advice. He said if I had no knowledge of it, there was no liability for me. But now that I knew of its existence I could be held liable if I did nothing about it. The lawyer had no faith in the BOR and suggested I do the following and if they didn't comply go to the BOR and also file a lawsuit: call the PE and explain t e error of his ways. Demand every copy of every one they had "prepared" for me along with a signed letter acknowledging what they had done and that every copy and original had been retrieved and sent to me to be destroyed. They had to get copies back from Planning and Zoning and other government offices. I then began getting calls from P&Z and the other gov officials. I was completely honest and sent copies of the letter to them. That company no longer exists. I think it was a fitting end. Maybe I should have filed a complaint and/or lawsuit. He got what he deserved and I didn't have to go through the hassle complaints or lawsuits would have caused.
[sarcasm]There was not enough technology in Marion County to achieve that end result[/sarcasm]
You're right - nothing prevents someone from trying. But this gives me something to help protect myself by very easily looking at a plat and saying that it is or isn't a true, certified copy.
