I typically don't write a new description, I figure my plat is sufficient, but the paralegel contacted me with questions then sent me the written description they had originally came up with. There were a lot of errors and typo's in it. They even had my name wrong, so I thought I should write it for them.
Adam, post: 328768, member: 8900 wrote: Do you put the descriptions in text on all your surveys? I think maybe I should start putting the descriptions on every survey.
I put the legal description on every survey, even though it isn't required. I don't want someone think I botched a description because of a paralegal's inability to cut/paste. Not that I'm overly suspicious of paralegal's, but also because around here they usually only copy the bearings and distances section, and the lawyer rewrites the preamble and being clause themselves. Which is fine, but mine include additional information about the survey that gets axed. Ink and paper are cheap, information is valuable.
Woopigsurveyor, post: 328801, member: 8227 wrote: First the only time a surveyor should write a new description is if he is creating a new parcel. If you can follow the existing description it is valid and you are only clouding the title unnecessarily if you insist on writing a new description.
Second did they supply the deed that the new description came from? If not you need to request the new deed to be included in the title binder.
As far as the title company re-writing the description based on your previous survey, unfortunately it happens frequently. Fortunately it is not your legal so you are not the one who decided to throw a cloud over the title.
Also good news you get to perform two seperate surveys and you already have the field work mostly completed.
I must disagree, the state I do most of my work in requires a new description and plat be made for EVERY survey. Even if it is a partial survey. The only time we do not have to is if the client expressly states that they don't want it, and I personally think "coaching" them to not request it is unprofessional and against the spirit of the regulation.
Thanks for all the comments, I am a solo operation, usually I have no one to bounce my thoughts off of and it is awesome to be able to get others experience's/comments. SurveyorConnect Rocks!
We have to write them here. This is how it appears in the law:
"PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS, LAND SURVEYORS LAW AND PUBLIC SAFETY
Chapter 40 Page 36 of 107 Last Revision Date: 4/20/2015
f) The items that must always be shown are:
1) Title block complying with N.J.A.C. 13:40-8;
2) The State, county and municipality in which the property is located and specific data
as provided by the owner identifying the property or other pertinent identifying data
as deemed appropriate by the surveyor, including block, lot number and address;
3) North arrow, identifying the horizontal datum of the survey (for example, NAD27,
NAD83, magnetic, deed book and page, etc.) and scale;
4) The point of beginning;
5) Metes and bounds of the property in question; all measurements are to be indicated
in feet and decimals of a foot except when legal requirements or professional custom
and usage require another form of measurement; "
and again here:
"Chapter 40 Page 37 of 107 Last Revision Date: 4/20/2015
1) The licensed professional land surveyor shall also supply a description of the
property surveyed when the survey is to be used for conveyancing (title transfer or
mortgage). This description must be suitable for use in a deed. The description shall
be by metes and bounds or by reference to a filed plan, block and lot. If a filed plan,
block and lot is utilized, the entire title of the filed plan shall be set forth along with,
the filed plan number and the date on which the plan was recorded in the office of the
County Recording Officer. If there is any deviation from the filed plan to the
completed survey, a description by filed plan, block and lot, shall not be utilized. The
deed description shall be consistent with both the survey provided and the
documentation upon which the survey was based and shall be written in such a
manner as to define the boundary lines of real property unambiguous and sufficient
for a surveyor to lay it out on the ground. This description may be reproduced on the
survey plat itself or may be by separate document. If the deed description is provided
on the survey plat, it must be titled "Deed Description." If a separate document is
provided, the description shall be signed and sealed by the licensed professional land
surveyor responsible for its preparation. "
Local Planning board insists on a new "legal description", complete with metes and bounds on every survey. Yet they wonder how come my distances and bearings are always slightly or more than slightly different from the original survey o.O. Couple of local lowballers have their "found" matching "record" all the time. :-@ I have repeatedly argued that a new legal every time a survey is done is redundant if the differences are minor and is also contrary to state statute. I don't know about you, but I have a hard time surveying the same points at different times and with different equipment, and still having exactly the same results to the same 01" and .01'
Plumb Bill, post: 328870, member: 226 wrote: I must disagree, the state I do most of my work in requires a new description and plat be made for EVERY survey. Even if it is a partial survey. The only time we do not have to is if the client expressly states that they don't want it, and I personally think "coaching" them to not request it is unprofessional and against the spirit of the regulation.
"... the state I do most of my work in requires a new description and plat be made for EVERY survey."
That strikes me as extraordinarily strange. Justice Cooley will be turning over many times if he hears this! It is my understanding that each new description would cloud the title based on the original description. I also understand that only a judge can legally change a description...
Dan Patterson, post: 328890, member: 1179 wrote: We have to write them here. This is how it appears in the law:
"PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS, LAND SURVEYORS LAW AND PUBLIC SAFETY
Chapter 40 Page 36 of 107 Last Revision Date: 4/20/2015f) The items that must always be shown are:
1) Title block complying with N.J.A.C. 13:40-8;
2) The State, county and municipality in which the property is located and specific data
as provided by the owner identifying the property or other pertinent identifying data
as deemed appropriate by the surveyor, including block, lot number and address;
3) North arrow, identifying the horizontal datum of the survey (for example, NAD27,
NAD83, magnetic, deed book and page, etc.) and scale;
4) The point of beginning;
5) Metes and bounds of the property in question; all measurements are to be indicated
in feet and decimals of a foot except when legal requirements or professional custom
and usage require another form of measurement; "and again here:
"Chapter 40 Page 37 of 107 Last Revision Date: 4/20/2015
1) The licensed professional land surveyor shall also supply a description of the
property surveyed when the survey is to be used for conveyancing (title transfer or
mortgage). This description must be suitable for use in a deed. The description shall
be by metes and bounds or by reference to a filed plan, block and lot. If a filed plan,
block and lot is utilized, the entire title of the filed plan shall be set forth along with,
the filed plan number and the date on which the plan was recorded in the office of the
County Recording Officer. If there is any deviation from the filed plan to the
completed survey, a description by filed plan, block and lot, shall not be utilized. The
deed description shall be consistent with both the survey provided and the
documentation upon which the survey was based and shall be written in such a
manner as to define the boundary lines of real property unambiguous and sufficient
for a surveyor to lay it out on the ground. This description may be reproduced on the
survey plat itself or may be by separate document. If the deed description is provided
on the survey plat, it must be titled "Deed Description." If a separate document is
provided, the description shall be signed and sealed by the licensed professional land
surveyor responsible for its preparation. "
I don't interpret this to mean that a new description MUST be written to accompany a new survey. That's not at all what it says - it clearly states that the "Deed Description" can be used, and that is what should be done.
What does "This description must be suitable for use in a deed" mean? Who decides its "suitablity"?
In Texas, it is quite common to prepare a new description for every survey (except for lots in a recorded subdivision). I believe the preamble of the description should address the intent, which is paramount for reconstructing a survey and should prevent any clouding of title. For instance, if I were to write a new description of a lot in a recorded subdivision, the preamble would include something to the effect of "being all of Lot 1, Block 1, Name of Subdivision, as recorded in Book 1, Page 1, County Records". In this way, it is clear that the intent is for this description to describe all of whatever Lot 1 is according to the referenced plat. Thus if my calls for monumentation, direction or distance conflict with the actual boundaries of Lot 1, then the intent (all of Lot 1) will trump the bogus call(s) and there are no title issues.
Dan Patterson, post: 328890, member: 1179 wrote: We have to write them here. This is how it appears in the law:
"PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS, LAND SURVEYORS LAW AND PUBLIC SAFETY
Chapter 40 Page 36 of 107 Last Revision Date: 4/20/2015
f) The items that must always be shown are:
1) Title block complying with N.J.A.C. 13:40-8;
2) The State, county and municipality in which the property is located and specific data
as provided by the owner identifying the property or other pertinent identifying data
as deemed appropriate by the surveyor, including block, lot number and address;
3) North arrow, identifying the horizontal datum of the survey (for example, NAD27,
NAD83, magnetic, deed book and page, etc.) and scale;
4) The point of beginning;
5) Metes and bounds of the property in question; all measurements are to be indicated
in feet and decimals of a foot except when legal requirements or professional custom
and usage require another form of measurement; "and again here:
"Chapter 40 Page 37 of 107 Last Revision Date: 4/20/2015
1) The licensed professional land surveyor shall also supply a description of the
property surveyed when the survey is to be used for conveyancing (title transfer or
mortgage). This description must be suitable for use in a deed. The description shall
be by metes and bounds or by reference to a filed plan, block and lot. If a filed plan,
block and lot is utilized, the entire title of the filed plan shall be set forth along with,
the filed plan number and the date on which the plan was recorded in the office of the
County Recording Officer. If there is any deviation from the filed plan to the
completed survey, a description by filed plan, block and lot, shall not be utilized. The
deed description shall be consistent with both the survey provided and the
documentation upon which the survey was based and shall be written in such a
manner as to define the boundary lines of real property unambiguous and sufficient
for a surveyor to lay it out on the ground. This description may be reproduced on the
survey plat itself or may be by separate document. If the deed description is provided
on the survey plat, it must be titled "Deed Description." If a separate document is
provided, the description shall be signed and sealed by the licensed professional land
surveyor responsible for its preparation. "
People from other states can "interpret" your regs however they want - practicing in a state, though, means you should be intimately familiar with how your board views the reg verbiage - and you should then operate accordingly.
Jim in AZ, post: 328895, member: 249 wrote: I don't interpret this to mean that a new description MUST be written to accompany a new survey. That's not at all what it says - it clearly states that the "Deed Description" can be used, and that is what should be done.
What does "This description must be suitable for use in a deed" mean? Who decides its "suitablity"?
Well you still have to have the description either on the survey or on a separate page with your signature and seal, so you are signing it. Whether or not you use the original text depends on the situation.
Suitability is just another subjective thing thrown into the rules and regulations which are riddled with such terms.
Jim in AZ, post: 328893, member: 249 wrote: "... the state I do most of my work in requires a new description and plat be made for EVERY survey."
That strikes me as extraordinarily strange. Justice Cooley will be turning over many times if he hears this! It is my understanding that each new description would cloud the title based on the original description. I also understand that only a judge can legally change a description...
I don't see how? I don't survey title, I survey boundary line evidence of possession. Also, I don't think better expressing measurements made with modern equipment negates "following in the footsteps". With a modicum of explanation and education as to the process we could point out to laypersons how in some cases historical efforts were quite good. We should never pander to ignorance for fear of " how it looks". The loud guffaws of the ignorant should have no impact as to efforts of the educated.
Also, I'm not talking "expert measurer", setting a tack on someone else's rebar cap, either. Although I will say if you've never worked on parcels worth several million dollars, you don't know what it's like to agonize over a tenth. It's all about perspective.
Plumb Bill, post: 328902, member: 226 wrote: I don't see how? I don't survey title, I survey boundary line evidence of possession. Also, I don't think better expressing measurements made with modern equipment negates "following in the footsteps". With a modicum of explanation and education as to the process we could point out to laypersons how in some cases historical efforts were quite good. We should never pander to ignorance for fear of " how it looks". The loud guffaws of the ignorant should have no impact as to efforts of the educated.
Also, I'm not talking "expert measurer", setting a tack on someone else's rebar cap, either. Although I will say if you've never worked on parcels worth several million dollars, you don't know what it's like to agonize over a tenth. It's all about perspective.
My attendance at seminars and discussions with title officers, land surveyors and attorneys over a 40+ year time span has taught me that the mere fact that I measure a direction and/or distance differently than the previous surveyor does not give me the authority to change a previous legal description. (This is somewhat akin to why the distance between original U.S. section corners is 80 chains.) I certainly have the right to report my findings on a map, but certainly do not have the authority to change an existing boundary description. That clearly creates a possibility of clouding the title. I have heard this so many times from so many different much more educated people than me that I can't imagine it's not true.
Jim in AZ, post: 328918, member: 249 wrote: My attendance at seminars and discussions with title officers, land surveyors and attorneys over a 40+ year time span has taught me that the mere fact that I measure a direction and/or distance differently than the previous surveyor does not give me the authority to change a previous legal description. (This is somewhat akin to why the distance between original U.S. section corners is 80 chains.) I certainly have the right to report my findings on a map, but certainly do not have the authority to change an existing boundary description. That clearly creates a possibility of clouding the title. I have heard this so many times from so many different much more educated people than me that I can't imagine it's not true.
I've never seen a single problem arise from it, and it's been practiced religiously around here for over 50 years.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Property descriptions can come from most anywhere and do not always follow any previous surveys.
On rare occasions somebody arrives with a description of unknown origin that they want surveyed.
The description usually differs from record enough to change the possible intent of the original purpose and definitely agrees with the client's wants and needs to fix his problem.
I've surveyed these before and must step away from conventional boundary reconstruction into the shoes of the surveyor to show the client's understanding of what he was told he is buying.
The result is a survey showing a representation of what the client wants and showing what it would take to make it work, complete with overlapping, gaps and/or tracts or portions of other tracts of record that make up what the client thinks should be his.....
I sometimes call it a court exhibit to explain the mess......
