I am an alien in your country.
After five years of oil patch surveying and graduating survey school, I took a job in California. Under NAFTA, I qualified under a TN visa, which I reapplied for each year. I couldn't get a drivers licence until I was issued a SSN. My SSN card says 'alien' on the face of it.
I worked in California for 4 years, and wrote and passed my LSIT. The LSIT required my SSN. I then took a job offer in Washington state. After working in Washington state for 8 years, I wrote and passed my federal and state exams. These required my SSN and LSIT numbers.
Soon after moving to Washington, I married my wife, and attained a green card. In doing so, my status changed from 'alien' to 'resident alien'.
Does anyone on this board feel I am under-qualified or shouldn't be allowed to practice land surveying in the state I am licenced in?
I would love to hear your reasoning that someone who has 13 years of experience working in PLSS states shouldn't be allowed to practice due to their citizenship.
Andy Nold, post: 351198, member: 7 wrote: Well, what does "aliens" mean in the context of the above posted article? Are they talking about persons from outside the U.S. or just people who reside outside of Nebraska?
An alien is defined as not being a citizen of the county. Residing out of state is typically just referred to as a out-of-state,.... As in out-of-state worker, out-of-state commuter, out-of-state hunter.
summerprophet, post: 351507, member: 8874 wrote: I am an alien in your country.
After five years of oil patch surveying and graduating survey school, I took a job in California. Under NAFTA, I qualified under a TN visa, which I reapplied for each year. I couldn't get a drivers licence until I was issued a SSN. My SSN card says 'alien' on the face of it.
I worked in California for 4 years, and wrote and passed my LSIT. The LSIT required my SSN. I then took a job offer in Washington state. After working in Washington state for 8 years, I wrote and passed my federal and state exams. These required my SSN and LSIT numbers.
Soon after moving to Washington, I married my wife, and attained a green card. In doing so, my status changed from 'alien' to 'resident alien'.
Does anyone on this board feel I am under-qualified or shouldn't be allowed to practice land surveying in the state I am licenced in?
I would love to hear your reasoning that someone who has 13 years of experience working in PLSS states shouldn't be allowed to practice due to their citizenship.
I do not see any reason why a person born in another country could be less qualified.
I do find it very disturbing that so many judge others based on place of birth or religion...
For Summerprophet:
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Your perspective on the issue is appreciated.
summerprophet, post: 351507, member: 8874 wrote:
Does anyone on this board feel I am under-qualified or shouldn't be allowed to practice land surveying in the state I am licenced in?I would love to hear your reasoning that someone who has 13 years of experience working in PLSS states shouldn't be allowed to practice due to their citizenship.
That article is from 1973. I don't think many care today. Would it be likewise possible for an American to get registered as a surveyor in your home country?
Andy Nold, post: 351562, member: 7 wrote: That article is from 1973. I don't think many care today. Would it be likewise possible for an American to get registered as a surveyor in your home country?
While I do not believe there is any language preventing immigrants in Canada from becoming land surveyors, you would need to relocate there to do so.
Canada uses a mentoring format for land surveying, where you are taught and mentored under a licenced LS, while you study and prepare for the 14 examinations and oral review. This is after the education requirement of course.
Canada's land surveyors are incredibly well respected worldwide, and the licencing standards are incredibly high. If I had stayed in Canada, I would not have persued getting licenced. One of the attractions to the states is how (relatively) easy it is to get licenced here.
summerprophet, post: 351507, member: 8874 wrote: I am an alien in your country.
After five years of oil patch surveying and graduating survey school, I took a job in California. Under NAFTA, I qualified under a TN visa, which I reapplied for each year. I couldn't get a drivers licence until I was issued a SSN. My SSN card says 'alien' on the face of it.
I worked in California for 4 years, and wrote and passed my LSIT. The LSIT required my SSN. I then took a job offer in Washington state. After working in Washington state for 8 years, I wrote and passed my federal and state exams. These required my SSN and LSIT numbers.
Soon after moving to Washington, I married my wife, and attained a green card. In doing so, my status changed from 'alien' to 'resident alien'.
Does anyone on this board feel I am under-qualified or shouldn't be allowed to practice land surveying in the state I am licenced in?
I would love to hear your reasoning that someone who has 13 years of experience working in PLSS states shouldn't be allowed to practice due to their citizenship.
Not enough information. There is much more to surveying than knowledge and skills. There must be a desire for the public good and rule of law. By your own account, you've gone to great lengths to observe and follow the immigration laws of our country. I have no idea of your allegiance to her (the public good).
Working as a technician is one thing, being a licensed professional is quite another. I'm a man with a family and have great respect for men who do what it takes to provide for their family and make a better life for them, regardless of national origin. Assimilation is critical to national identity. There is a unique American culture. Embrace it and be welcome. This isn't political, it's central to the question of licensing. Not all aliens followed the law to be here in the US or to remain here. That's a disqualification. Not all have an allegiance to this country. That's a disqualification.
Shawn Billings, post: 351573, member: 6521 wrote: Not all have an allegiance to this country. That's a disqualification.
I think it happens a little less in America than other countries, but as long as they passed all their tests and were doing quality work, I'm not sure allegiance comes into it. If an Aussie (chosen because I know there were some Americans going to work down there, and I don't see a reason for them not to identify as Americans) were to come over and do what it took to get their license but kept their old citizenship, I wouldn't have a problem with that.
If summerprophet still identifies more as a Canadian than an American, I can still respect their professionalism. Give me a quality foreign surveyor over a half assed american one any day.
mattyoclock, post: 351574, member: 10773 wrote: I think it happens a little less in America than other countries, but as long as they passed all their tests and were doing quality work, I'm not sure allegiance comes into it. If an Aussie (chosen because I know there were some Americans going to work down there, and I don't see a reason for them not to identify as Americans) were to come over and do what it took to get their license but kept their old citizenship, I wouldn't have a problem with that.
If summerprophet still identifies more as a Canadian than an American, I can still respect their professionalism. Give me a quality foreign surveyor over a half assed american one any day.
The distinction needs to be made between legal and illegal non-citizens.
Illegal non-citizens are guilty of a federal misdemeanor (and possibly a felony if repeated illegal immigration occurs). I suspect that a criminal history is a stumbling block to getting licensed in most states.
Many people legally live/work in the United States while maintaining citizenship in a different country. I see no problem with them being professionally licensed.
California does require a loyalty oath in the application for the second division examination. It states that the applicant, should he be licensed, will support the Constitution of this state and of the United States, and that he will faithfully discharge the duties of a licensed land surveyor.
Warren Smith, post: 351608, member: 9900 wrote: California does require a loyalty oath in the application for the second division examination. It states that the applicant, should he be licensed, will support the Constitution of this state and of the United States, and that he will faithfully discharge the duties of a licensed land surveyor.
Here is the Oath California state/county/city employees must take before being employed....Note it states "support AND defend", not just support.
Aliens have to register for selective services...so they also have to defend the constitution. I suspect aliens have to sign a similar oath to the one below.
"I, ______, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support
and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Consti-
tution of the State of California against all enemies, foreign
and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the
Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the
State of California; that I take this obligation freely, without
any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will
well and faithfully discharge the duties upon which I am about
to enter.
"And I do further swear (or affirm) that I do not advocate,
nor
am I a member of any party or organization, political or other-
wise, that now advocates the overthrow of the Government of the
United States or of the State of California by force or violence
or other unlawful means; that within the five years immediately
preceding the taking of this oath (or affirmation) I have not
been a member of any party or organization, political or other-
wise, that advocated the overthrow of the Government of the
United States or of the State of California by force or violence
or other unlawful means except as follows:
________________________________________________________________
(If no affiliations, write in the words "No Exceptions")
and that during such time as I hold the office of ______________
________________________________ I will not advocate nor become
(name of office)
a member of any party or organization, political or otherwise,
that advocates the overthrow of the Government of the United
States or of the State of California by force or violence or
other unlawful means."
And no other oath, declaration, or test, shall be required as a
qualification for any public office or employment.
"Public officer and employee" includes every officer and employee
of the State, including the University of California, every county,
city, city and county, district, and authority, including any
department, division, bureau, board, commission, agency, or
instrumentality of any of the foregoing.
imaudigger, post: 351609, member: 7286 wrote: Here is the Oath California state/county/city employees must take before being employed....Note it states "support AND defend", not just support.
And that makes sense for a public employee.
I don't see that as incompatible with being a citizen of another country - with a few notable exceptions (North Korea springs to mind).
Warren Smith, post: 351611, member: 9900 wrote: And that makes sense for a public employee.
I don't see that as incompatible with being a citizen of another country - with a few notable exceptions (North Korea springs to mind).
I edited my post above to reflect the fact that aliens have to register with selective services...so they DO have to "support AND defend" the constitution.
If you can be drafted to defend the country....you sure as he11 should be able to earn a living as a licensed professional surveyor!
imaudigger, post: 351607, member: 7286 wrote: The distinction needs to be made between legal and illegal non-citizens.
Illegal non-citizens are guilty of a federal misdemeanor (and possibly a felony if repeated illegal immigration occurs). I suspect that a criminal history is a stumbling block to getting licensed in most states.Many people legally live/work in the United States while maintaining citizenship in a different country. I see no problem with them being professionally licensed.
Well, I'd agree with that, although I do feel a bit like that's a solution looking for a problem.
I just can't see an Illegal getting an application for all the tests approved by the board or filling out the experience requirements, with the references from licensed surveyors and all else. I would think the citizenship would be easier to get, and if you are planning out your career enough to get your PLS, you'd also pick up the citizenship before then.
I feel I should make a statement that I made the original post as something amusing with the newspaper using the word 'aliens', as in extraterrestrials, but the thread had since taken a different direction which is okay, but I thought I would clarify why I posted it to begin with. Carry on...
Does "Aliens"include Lawyers from Alabama?
Shawn Billings, post: 351573, member: 6521 wrote: Assimilation is critical to national identity. There is a unique American culture. Embrace it and be welcome.
If by assimilation you mean becoming quite familiar with the laws, regulations, and history of your country, customs and cultures, I am on board.
If you mean learn to love white gravy, nascar, and baseball..... I just can't do it man, I just can't do it.
imaudigger, post: 351609, member: 7286 wrote: Here is the Oath California state/county/city employees must take before being employed....Note it states "support AND defend", not just support.
Aliens have to register for selective services...so they also have to defend the constitution. I suspect aliens have to sign a similar oath to the one below.
"I, ______, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support
and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Consti-
tution of the State of California against all enemies, foreign
and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the
Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the
State of California; that I take this obligation freely, without
any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will
well and faithfully discharge the duties upon which I am about
to enter.
"And I do further swear (or affirm) that I do not advocate,
nor
am I a member of any party or organization, political or other-
wise, that now advocates the overthrow of the Government of the
United States or of the State of California by force or violence
or other unlawful means; that within the five years immediately
preceding the taking of this oath (or affirmation) I have not
been a member of any party or organization, political or other-
wise, that advocated the overthrow of the Government of the
United States or of the State of California by force or violence
or other unlawful means except as follows:
________________________________________________________________
(If no affiliations, write in the words "No Exceptions")
and that during such time as I hold the office of ______________
________________________________ I will not advocate nor become
(name of office)
a member of any party or organization, political or otherwise,
that advocates the overthrow of the Government of the United
States or of the State of California by force or violence or
other unlawful means."
And no other oath, declaration, or test, shall be required as a
qualification for any public office or employment.
"Public officer and employee" includes every officer and employee
of the State, including the University of California, every county,
city, city and county, district, and authority, including any
department, division, bureau, board, commission, agency, or
instrumentality of any of the foregoing.
I wonder if I signed that or something similar when I was licensed in 1981... in my youth I was much less cautious/trusting than I am today
Summerprophet,
Man, that white gravy is the only edible gravy. Avoid the brown stuff. The best white gravy is made with either ham or bacon drippings. Forget the magic in a box stuff that pretends to be gravy.
summerprophet, post: 351681, member: 8874 wrote: If by assimilation you mean becoming quite familiar with the laws, regulations, and history of your country, customs and cultures, I am on board.
If you mean learn to love white gravy, nascar, and baseball..... I just can't do it man, I just can't do it.
I feel you man...that baseball just doesn't do it for me, either. 😉