I can say with a certainty that in my nearly thirty years of experience, and billions of dollars worth of highway work under my belt, I have yet to come across any job that required the blessing of a land surveyor for anything other than boundary and primary control with the exception of Dallas Water Utilities, who require an rpls. They coincidentally stake their own jobs for the most part, but it is not hard to do the end around on them if need be.
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takeoffmat, post: 331786, member: 9638 wrote: There is a company called Ranger Engineering Consulting that specializes in building 3D GPS machine control models. They have an interesting affiliate program for Surveyors and Engineers. I spoke with them and they explained that for those surveyors and engineers that are not currently selling machine control models and want nothing to do with building models they will build the models for you. They give you a discounted price and let you mark it up as much as you want. They have a tiered discount structure that is dependent on the about of work you push their way. What do you think? Is this something worth trying? I'm curious if any of you are currently selling machine control models and what kind of success you are having. If you want to check their website here is the address http://www.ranger.engineering/
There's a concept found in most professional licensing laws called "responsible charge"...
Mr. Ranger,
I don't doubt your experience or ability to create accurate models. However:
WE DO have a PE on staff
Is he licensed in all 50 States?
If you provide a model for a client in one of the many States that requires these models to be certified then you would be practicing without a license in that State. If the client does not have the experience or knowledge to oversee your work but stamps it anyway then he would be violating his Boards regulations also. This is pretty clear cut and I am not sure how you could argue otherwise.
We legally maintain all the liability for our models sold through our affiliate program
I am not a lawyer but I have several of them, along with a judge in my immediate family, so I have been around the law my entire life. What I can assure you is that if I provided one of your models to a client for a fee and that model created a liability issue, I would be just as liable as you for whatever issues it caused. In some cases I would be more liable, especially if I sealed your work. This is not a knock on the quality of your work, it may be excellent. It is just a simple observation on how the legal system works in our Country.
We are really good at it and can offer our services at a great price. So stop knocking it just because it doesn't fit into YOUR business model.
I really don't have a problem with what you do, as long is it is done within the limits of the rules and regulations of the Professional Board of the State in which you are working. I would even consider using your services if I was ever too busy to prepare one of my own models, but I would definitely be involved in the process and I have the experience and knowledge to oversee and review the work. Also, If I ever did take part, it would be with the understanding that I would be carrying as much or more of the liability as you.
I can say with a certainty that in my nearly thirty years of experience, and billions of dollars worth of highway work under my belt, I have yet to come across any job that required the blessing of a land surveyor for anything other than boundary and primary control with the exception of Dallas Water Utilities, who require an rpls. They coincidentally stake their own jobs for the most part, but it is not hard to do the end around on them if need be.
Does your billions of dollars include highways in North Carolina, Kentucky, Florida, or California? Because if it did, and you used machine control models in any of those States and you did not have a licensed Surveyor or Engineer in responsible charge of that work, then you were practicing without a license in those States. And those are just the States that I found with a 2 minute Google search that have specifically addressed the issue. I am sure that there are many more.
takeoffmat, post: 331876, member: 9638 wrote: So what about Dealers who resell models? I guess they are taking upon them all that liability.
Personally, I think that dealers who take on any role in production, whether it's building 3D models for machine control or processing scanned data for a rental customer, are exercising extremely poor judgment from a number of standpoints. There is the obvious question of whether they have someone on staff who is qualified to do the work, especially if it is work that should be done under the responsible charge of a licensed professional. I doubt if any dealer carries the liability insurance that they would need to have if and when things go awry. And as a dealer do you really want to go into competition with your existing and potential customers?
There may be exceptions to this in the machine control world; dealers who have considered it from all angles and have included that service in their business plan. Personally I'd be very concerned about the liability; I wouldn't want to have any ties to a major construction project where folks were looking to place blame for a seven or eight figure blunder.
MD Surveyor, post: 333344, member: 10081 wrote: Does your billions of dollars include highways in North Carolina, Kentucky, Florida, or California? Because if it did, and you used machine control models in any of those States and you did not have a licensed Surveyor or Engineer in responsible charge of that work, then you were practicing without a license in those States. And those are just the States that I found with a 2 minute Google search that have specifically addressed the issue. I am sure that there are many more.
No, not personally, but the outfit that I work for has and does and if they sent me there I certainly would. Very few Construction Surveyors have a license. If you have two minutes Google how many states recognize Construction Surveying as *surveying* and count that experience towards licensure. Therein lies the problem with these boards narcissistic, unenforceable rules. If you want to regulate, you have to recognize, and if you refuse to recognize you cannot regulate. You should Google and see what the AGC's thoughts are on this.
In California, construction staking is considered land surveying (regardless of the technology used) and it is not considered as experience towards sitting for the LS test.
I have yet to see a contractor charged for practicing land surveying without a license when they stake their own job using GPS.
It's black/white and grey at the same time.
Peter Ehlert, post: 333321, member: 60 wrote: Thanks that clears it up a lot. The opening post sure sonded like a sales pitch, so now we know it was.
Did you ever say where you practice?
You obviously work in a state with completely different laws.
This site Ranger Engineering Consulting, About Us appears to have the same Logo. Address is Flagstaff, Arizona. The next question is does the company have a certificate of authorization to practice either professional surveying or engineering in Ohio? If you do then you would need a professional licensed in Ohio on your staff to certify the model. If not the Ohio Revised Code (ORC) laws under 4733.14 Certificate of registration - seals and Ohio Administrative Code (OAC) rules under 4733-35-04 Public statements and certifications would make it difficult (or illegal) for an Ohio professional to use your service. The Ohio Board of Registration requires all surveying or engineering work products, the digital model would qualify, to be certified by the issuing professional. However, the Board frowns upon Plan Stamping and cooperates with licensing boards in other states when investigating statements like:
Ranger, post: 333305, member: 10391 wrote: Guys we have been building models for over 11 years in almost all 50 states. Our lead engineer himself has build over 1600 models. I would put our work up against anybodies.
Roadhand, post: 333349, member: 61 wrote: No, not personally, but the outfit that I work for has and does and if they sent me there I certainly would. Very few Construction Surveyors have a license. If you have two minutes Google how many states recognize Construction Surveying as *surveying* and count that experience towards licensure. Therein lies the problem with these boards narcissistic, unenforceable rules. If you want to regulate, you have to recognize, and if you refuse to recognize you cannot regulate. You should Google and see what the AGC's thoughts are on this.
This is very well put. The disdain toward construction surveyors that *ahem* professional land surveyors often have boggles my mind. In 15 years I've been lucky to have a nice mix of experience--public and private sector, cadastral surveys, "design" surveys, and construction surveys. The most difficult, intense, and stressful BY FAR is construction surveying.
The only reason I can think of that it is thought of so poorly is that it does not occur on the design side, so is rarely part of a multi-disciplinary firm's work. Therefore, it is not included in a package of work along with other professionals. That, and your boots get muddy and you have to talk to *gasp* blue-collar workers. The SHAME!
Modeling is recognized in North Carolina as surveying/engineering. I know of a dealer who was cited for making models and not having a PLS or PE on staff. I know this because I was contacted by several contractors around the same time who quickly lost the ability to get models made and had to go looking for a licensed guy to build them. Made several for them, then they disappear when they find another person willing to skirt the law for less money. By the way, I keep an eye out for that guy, and am always curious who and where they are from. When I talk to contractors I frequently bring up the fact that if it wasnt made by a person licensed in NC, that they breaking the rules. My .02
This is very well put. The disdain toward construction surveyors that *ahem* professional land surveyors often have boggles my mind. In 15 years I've been lucky to have a nice mix of experience--public and private sector, cadastral surveys, "design" surveys, and construction surveys. The most difficult, intense, and stressful BY FAR is construction surveying.
The only reason I can think of that it is thought of so poorly is that it does not occur on the design side, so is rarely part of a multi-disciplinary firm's work. Therefore, it is not included in a package of work along with other professionals. That, and your boots get muddy and you have to talk to *gasp* blue-collar workers. The SHAME!
I have actually never witnessed or experienced the disdain you are referring to. I spent 8 years surveying prior to being licensed, much of which was construction stakeout. I also still perform construction stakeout now that I am licensed. Actually, every Professional Land Surveyor I know has spent his fair share of time "getting his boots muddy" and most still consider themselves " *gasp* blue collar workers".
agreed, construction staking is tough work and it is a specialized skill.
despite the word "Surveying" it is clearly a separate area of practice and only has geometry and some tools in common and not much else.
the powers that be have generally determined that the public needs to be protected from those that have not been vetted in some areas of our practice. not all jurisdictions are the same.
the qualifying experience for the professional exams needs to include boundary research, analysis, and document preparation. the quickie written exams and 'book learnin' can't cover that so in most jurisdictions experience is required.
those that have spent their working career in construction find it quite difficult to qualify for the broader practice.
bite the bullet and find employment in a firm that can give qualifying experience... or move to an area that does not require experience... or just accept the facts of life.
It is my understanding that in Florida contractors are free to employ unregistered individuals to perform the staking/model building and that the only thing that they are required to subcontract to licensed professionals is the engineering design, control establishment, and final as-built survey. Everything in between is open for the contractor to accomplish as he sees fit. Note that I said Employ, not contract. The individual(s) performing the staking/model building must be on the payroll of the construction company. The idea is that the contractor is assuming all liability for mistakes made in staking and modeling.
Randy Rain, post: 333537, member: 35 wrote: It is my understanding that in Florida contractors are free to employ unregistered individuals to perform the staking/model building and that the only thing that they are required to subcontract to licensed professionals is the engineering design, control establishment, and final as-built survey. Everything in between is open for the contractor to accomplish as he sees fit. Note that I said Employ, not contract. The individual(s) performing the staking/model building must be on the payroll of the construction company. The idea is that the contractor is assuming all liability for mistakes made in staking and modeling.
Same here, Contractors can freely use "employees" however they choose. A few dealers around here now have a PLS on staff, that oversees the model building, I think this is good for us surveyors. What is bad for us surveyors, is when there is no license involved at all.
Randy Rain, post: 333537, member: 35 wrote: It is my understanding that in Florida contractors are free to employ unregistered individuals to perform the staking/model building and that the only thing that they are required to subcontract to licensed professionals is the engineering design, control establishment, and final as-built survey. Everything in between is open for the contractor to accomplish as he sees fit. Note that I said Employ, not contract. The individual(s) performing the staking/model building must be on the payroll of the construction company. The idea is that the contractor is assuming all liability for mistakes made in staking and modeling.
That is my point exactly and I am positive that it is that way in every other state regardless of what some of these others are claiming.
That is my point exactly and I am positive that it is that way in every other state regardless of what some of these others are claiming.
This thread was about another consulting firm preparing models for out of state contractors and consultants, not contractors doing their own stakeout. Although to be fair, after re-reading my one comment above, it was not clear on that. I personally don't have a problem with a contractor performing their own stakeout. Some of the best surveyors that have ever worked for me are currently working for contractors and making pretty good money doing it.
MD Surveyor, post: 333573, member: 10081 wrote: This thread was about another consulting firm preparing models for out of state contractors and consultants, not contractors doing their own stakeout. Although to be fair, after re-reading my one comment above, it was not clear on that. I personally don't have a problem with a contractor performing their own stakeout. Some of the best surveyors that have ever worked for me are currently working for contractors and making pretty good money doing it.
Similar situation in Ohio as far as employees of contractors. I have taught the employees of many contractors to do this work. However, many of the construction contracts require the work be under the supervision of licensed engineers or surveyors. In addition establishing primary site control, related to property boundaries, must be completed by a licensed surveyor.
Some years ago one of my students was a construction company owner and licensed professional engineer with many years of experience. He was taking additional course work and assisting with boundary surveys unrelated to his construction projects. These boundary surveys were under the supervision of a professional surveyor to meet the experience requirements. He told me, and several students in the class, that dual registration would be necessary to manage most of his jobs in a few years. GPS control was one of the reasons he mentioned.
