Jim Frame, post: 331826, member: 10 wrote: I see a ton of liability with little profit margin. You'll be certifying work over which you have little or no direct control or knowledge, unless you invest the time to rigorously check the model. Unlike an aerial topo, in which spot checks on the ground are likely to reveal any blunders, a 3D model that has even a modest goof can result in substantial rework costs.
My 2 cents, since you asked.
My profit margins are in the 75% range with models. Seems good to me. What are your profit margins surveying?
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 331830, member: 6939 wrote: Umm... Shouldn't the design model be part of the deliverable of the engineering plans? I thought that was what that Civil3d program thingy that costs thousands upon thousands of dollars was for.
Engineers are paid for plans not models. If they were smart, there would be an additional charge for a usable surface.
James Fleming, post: 331829, member: 136 wrote: From their website:
"Ranger EngineeringÛªs Stamp Ready ModelÛªs are ready for those states that do require a Û÷stampedÛª model and for those who just want that level of quality. We take the time to build all of our models correctly, however, with our Stamp Ready ModelÛªs, we take even more time."
You can pay us $X for a sort of correct model or $2X for the even more correct model. Nice
"At this time, we do not stamp our own models. We get the project so squeaky clean that your resident engineer can Û÷sealÛª the model without any concerns."
Well...no concerns other than violating the licensing laws by sealing a work product that they weren't in responsible charge of producing.
All my models are built to the same correctness (though I only have one charge). Seems silly to have a "correct" and a more "correct" model.
lol
Thad, post: 332812, member: 3408 wrote: My profit margins are in the 75% range with models. Seems good to me. What are your profit margins surveying?
Your profit margin is on your original work. The OP is talking about buying a model created by someone else, who already added his profit margin, and trying to mark it up further. That leaves little or no room to QC the model for which he'll be first in line on the liability chain. Pass.
Thad, post: 332812, member: 3408 wrote: What are your profit margins surveying?
Anywhere from 0% to 500%. It depends.
Norman Oklahoma, post: 332801, member: 9981 wrote: .. But if they hire a licensed professional to do it they can get their hooks into said professionals E&O. So the pro has his E&O to protect, but has to compete on price with unlicensed people who do not..
I hate to speak for others but I am 101% sure that *most* contractors make waaaay more money delivering their project in on time and under budget than they would trying to suck a claim out of a land surveyors insurance company. I am sure that professional insurance seems like big potatoes to yourselves, but in the big scheme of things in the contractors world it really isn't.
Here is an article on the subject that lists several states that do require models to be prepared by licensed professionals. This article is from 2007, so there could be more States by now. (or less States but think that's doubtful)
Roadhand, post: 332870, member: 61 wrote: I hate to speak for others but I am 101% sure that *most* contractors make waaaay more money delivering their project in on time and under budget than they would trying to suck a claim out of a land surveyors insurance company. I am sure that professional insurance seems like big potatoes to yourselves, but in the big scheme of things in the contractors world it really isn't.
I the real world, contractors do make BS claims that could end a Land Surveyor's career.
in order to continue earning a living in Land Surveying I need my license. many need E&O insurance.
sometimes it is a BS claim for just a few thousand dollars to fill the pockets after the project is done... maybe just to provide beer money. I have been in the middle of several, details available.
I know you don't live in our world, but ask around, it is for real.
I am retired. In The Real World I could still be attacked for some little BS thing that happened while I was an employee. The defense could be financially devastating.
I hate to speak for others but I am 101% sure that *most* contractors make waaaay more money delivering their project in on time and under budget than they would trying to suck a claim out of a land surveyors insurance company. I am sure that professional insurance seems like big potatoes to yourselves, but in the big scheme of things in the contractors world it really isn't.
I agree that most contractors could care less about a surveyors E&O insurance when the project is delivered on time and under budget. But what happens when the project isn't delivered on time, or is over budget because of a mistake in the machine control model? I guarantee that many contractors would love to have the Surveyors E&O insurance make up for their losses.
Roadhand, post: 332870, member: 61 wrote: I hate to speak for others but I am 101% sure that *most* contractors make waaaay more money delivering their project in on time and under budget than they would trying to suck a claim out of a land surveyors insurance company. I am sure that professional insurance seems like big potatoes to yourselves, but in the big scheme of things in the contractors world it really isn't.
The greater point is that the PLS is obliged for various reasons (if for no other, the good of the profession) to operate to a higher standard than the non-professional, and yet in this case to do it in price competition with the non-professional. But I've never met a contractor who was shy about back charging a surveyor for fixes caused by mistakes in staking either.
Peter Ehlert, post: 332893, member: 60 wrote: I the real world, contractors do make BS claims that could end a Land Surveyor's career.
in order to continue earning a living in Land Surveying I need my license. many need E&O insurance.sometimes it is a BS claim for just a few thousand dollars to fill the pockets after the project is done... maybe just to provide beer money. I have been in the middle of several, details available.
I know you don't live in our world, but ask around, it is for real.I am retired. In The Real World I could still be attacked for some little BS thing that happened while I was an employee. The defense could be financially devastating.
I experienced this early on...general engineering contractors will deliberately build it wrong to an inadvertently mis-marked stake just to make money. I don't trust the average contractor, very few are honest.
MD Surveyor, post: 332894, member: 10081 wrote: I agree that most contractors could care less about a surveyors E&O insurance when the project is delivered on time and under budget. But what happens when the project isn't delivered on time, or is over budget because of a mistake in the machine control model? I guarantee that many contractors would love to have the Surveyors E&O insurance make up for their losses.
What if, what if, what if?. I am sure I will be told I am wrong and hear of some first-hand experiences, but those type of catastrophic scenarios just do not happen. It is too easy to catch.
Peter Ehlert, post: 332893, member: 60 wrote: I the real world, contractors do make BS claims that could end a Land Surveyor's career.
in order to continue earning a living in Land Surveying I need my license. many need E&O insurance.sometimes it is a BS claim for just a few thousand dollars to fill the pockets after the project is done... maybe just to provide beer money. I have been in the middle of several, details available.
I know you don't live in our world, but ask around, it is for real.I am retired. In The Real World I could still be attacked for some little BS thing that happened while I was an employee. The defense could be financially devastating.
Assuming that you made an error, Why would you file a claim for "beer money" instead of just paying it? If you did not make an error, you should be able to back your work.
Norman Oklahoma, post: 332913, member: 9981 wrote: The greater point is that the PLS is obliged for various reasons (if for no other, the good of the profession) to operate to a higher standard than the non-professional, and yet in this case to do it in price competition with the non-professional. But I've never met a contractor who was shy about back charging a surveyor for fixes caused by mistakes in staking either.
It is basically technician work. Technician work that pays really, really well. I would expect that the professionals rate to be on the low end of the competition and he could still make very good money as others have pointed out.
MD Surveyor, post: 332892, member: 10081 wrote: Here is an article on the subject that lists several states that do require models to be prepared by licensed professionals. This article is from 2007, so there could be more States by now. (or less States but think that's doubtful)
If you can sift through the bravado you get to this:
..they now run the very real risk of not actually having the skill to produce the required data set.
If you did not make an error, you should be able to back your work.
The thread was initially about taking a machine control model prepared by someone else and putting your seal on it. I assume anybody here would back their work if they made a mistake themselves.
It is basically technician work. Technician work that pays really, really well.
See the article I linked above. There are several State Licensing Boards that disagree with this statement.
I am not sure what the actual discussion is about anymore. I have prepared several machine control models in the past and I am sure I will in the future. I have had technicians working under my supervision prepare models that I have reviewed and approved before sending to the contractor. I have not taken a model prepared by someone else, assumed it was correct, marked up the price and forwarded it to the Contractor, and I probably never will for many of the reasons listed above. I would just caution any licensed individuals to check with their State Board before they assume creating machine control models doesn't fall under their Boards purview.
Actually the conversation was about an affiliate program that my company offers to Engineers, Surveyors & Dealers.
Some of you are way off in your statements and I would go as far to say that you don't know what you are talking about. Ranger Engineering Consulting has been in business for 11 years offering these services. In those 11 years we have yet to run into any legal issues with our models. There has been no liability issues. We legally maintain all the liability for our models sold through our affiliate program. We have quite a few Dealers and Surveyors who take advantage of our affiliate program. Just because you don't like the idea of it doesn't mean that it isn't a good option for some. Today I spoke to a surveyor out of La. who wants to offer models to his clients but just doesn't have the time to build them himself. He currently is building them but are taking to much of his time. This is all we do, everyday. We are really good at it and can offer our services at a great price. So stop knocking it just because it doesn't fit into YOUR business model.
As far as the different products we offer, there is a big difference in our Ranger Certified Models and our Stamp Ready Models and it is not the quality or the correctness of the model. Obviously Thad you have not built a heavy highway model in a state that requires that PE stamp. The process is a lot more detailed and requires may meetings and reports with governing agencies and require a ton more time. All of our models are Stamp Ready when it come to correctness but because of the time involved in some states we charge more. It's that simple.
For those who were questioning whether we had a PE and were questioning our education, WE DO have a PE on staff. Many of clients choose to use their own in house PE and we work 1 on 1 with that PE to get their model approved by the governing agency.
Guys we have been building models for over 11 years in almost all 50 states. Our lead engineer himself has build over 1600 models. I would put our work up against anybodies.
If you have questions about what Ranger Engineering is doing feel free to ask. I'll be more than happy to answer any of your questions.
Ranger, post: 333305, member: 10391 wrote: .... Today I spoke to a surveyor out of La. who wants to offer models to his clients but just doesn't have the time to build them himself. He currently is building them but are taking to much of his time. ....
I don't have a huge problem with your guy in LA. He knows how to do the job himself. He therefore has a sporting chance at supervising and taking responsible charge of similar work of others.
That is entirely different from the OP rubber stamping something that he has no knowledge of. It is outside the limits of his expertise.
Ranger, post: 333305, member: 10391 wrote: Actually the conversation was about an affiliate program that my company offers to Engineers, Surveyors & Dealers.
Some of you are way off in your statements and I would go as far to say that you don't know what you are talking about. Ranger Engineering Consulting has been in business for 11 years offering these services. In those 11 years we have yet to run into any legal issues with our models. There has been no liability issues. We legally maintain all the liability for our models sold through our affiliate program. We have quite a few Dealers and Surveyors who take advantage of our affiliate program. Just because you don't like the idea of it doesn't mean that it isn't a good option for some. Today I spoke to a surveyor out of La. who wants to offer models to his clients but just doesn't have the time to build them himself. He currently is building them but are taking to much of his time. This is all we do, everyday. We are really good at it and can offer our services at a great price. So stop knocking it just because it doesn't fit into YOUR business model.
As far as the different products we offer, there is a big difference in our Ranger Certified Models and our Stamp Ready Models and it is not the quality or the correctness of the model. Obviously Thad you have not built a heavy highway model in a state that requires that PE stamp. The process is a lot more detailed and requires may meetings and reports with governing agencies and require a ton more time. All of our models are Stamp Ready when it come to correctness but because of the time involved in some states we charge more. It's that simple.
For those who were questioning whether we had a PE and were questioning our education, WE DO have a PE on staff. Many of clients choose to use their own in house PE and we work 1 on 1 with that PE to get their model approved by the governing agency.
Guys we have been building models for over 11 years in almost all 50 states. Our lead engineer himself has build over 1600 models. I would put our work up against anybodies.
If you have questions about what Ranger Engineering is doing feel free to ask. I'll be more than happy to answer any of your questions.
Thanks that clears it up a lot. The opening post sure sonded like a sales pitch, so now we know it was.
Did you ever say where you practice?
You obviously work in a state with completely different laws.
Ranger, post: 333305, member: 10391 wrote: Actually the conversation was about an affiliate program that my company offers to Engineers, Surveyors & Dealers.
Some of you are way off in your statements and I would go as far to say that you don't know what you are talking about. Ranger Engineering Consulting has been in business for 11 years offering these services. In those 11 years we have yet to run into any legal issues with our models. There has been no liability issues. We legally maintain all the liability for our models sold through our affiliate program. We have quite a few Dealers and Surveyors who take advantage of our affiliate program. Just because you don't like the idea of it doesn't mean that it isn't a good option for some. Today I spoke to a surveyor out of La. who wants to offer models to his clients but just doesn't have the time to build them himself. He currently is building them but are taking to much of his time. This is all we do, everyday. We are really good at it and can offer our services at a great price. So stop knocking it just because it doesn't fit into YOUR business model.
As far as the different products we offer, there is a big difference in our Ranger Certified Models and our Stamp Ready Models and it is not the quality or the correctness of the model. Obviously Thad you have not built a heavy highway model in a state that requires that PE stamp. The process is a lot more detailed and requires may meetings and reports with governing agencies and require a ton more time. All of our models are Stamp Ready when it come to correctness but because of the time involved in some states we charge more. It's that simple.
For those who were questioning whether we had a PE and were questioning our education, WE DO have a PE on staff. Many of clients choose to use their own in house PE and we work 1 on 1 with that PE to get their model approved by the governing agency.
Guys we have been building models for over 11 years in almost all 50 states. Our lead engineer himself has build over 1600 models. I would put our work up against anybodies.
If you have questions about what Ranger Engineering is doing feel free to ask. I'll be more than happy to answer any of your questions.
Mr. Ranger,
I have built a few heavy highway jobs in a few States and I build all my models to the same accuracy as they should be IMO.
Thad, PE
From your website-
We take the time to build all of our models correctly, however, with our Stamp Ready ModelÛªs, we take even more time. We take more time to compare the engineers construction plans against State and Federal design standards. We do everything we can to make sure that this project is not only error free, but meets current engineering design standards.
