"It appears that NCEES wants the profession to conform to what it can readily test..."
Legal principles related to boundary determination can be readily tested in a national exam. State exams have plenty of room to test the minor nuances that exist in the boundary area.
As Paul points out, the problem with the experience only route is that one may perform the same thing over and over without learning much, or the same thing over and over incorrectly while thinking it's correct.
More than once a client has asked me "why can't surveyors stake out a building properly?". Similar inquiry's about boundaries. The answer is always the same. They are doing it the way the boss always did it (and of course the boss is always the best surveyor in the county, state, whatever). Unfortunately, the equipment and circumstances are different and the surveyor does not know enough of the underlying law or measurement science to understand how to adjust procedures or analysis.
The new NCEES model law does not add to the old one. In fact, since the 1950's when it first came out in a position paper, it has been steadily narrowed, mostly by influence of engineering interests (but also landscape architects, GIS practitioners, geologists, foresters, etc.) who wish to be the only ones (or at least included in the list of those) allowed to perform tasks traditionally accomplished by surveyors.
There is a push for more of a national standard in both engineering and surveying. But make no mistake, the new NCEES model law does not expand the national standard, it narrows it. In its narrower form it still may be an expansion of any individual States' law, but in many cases it would be narrowing State definitions.
And, any elimination of boundary experience thoughts derive strictly from the State that is suggesting them, not from NCEES or their model definition. But yes, it is expected that a well educated and experienced professional surveyor should be minimally competent in areas of practice included in the model law. It is up to any State that adopts it to use a licensing procedure they think is necessary. But it is hoped that similar definitions would result in similar paths to licensure, thereby building credibility and reliability of the profession.
Now, let the misinformation continue....
A search for the truth
:good:
Are you kidding me??
> .... as well as boundary staking are all just easilly reproduced mathmatics UNTIL things start getting twisted.
I'm really starting to believe this isn't an accidental exclusion of the sarcasm font.........
> I agree that they are two different skill sets. Boundary surveying is heavy on research and interpretation, construction is reliant on confidence and the ability to think on your feet.
>
> If this erroneous comment is a reaction to the recent proposal for two different licenses, I again disagree. We are in such a specialized field already, there is no need to limit us more. Separation of the licence is the first step in eliminating surveyors from construction projects all together.
>
> Most of the smaller firms I have worked for have done both, the boundary work keeps us afloat, the construction work brings us profit.
BINGO!!!! Someone finally has admitted the truth!!!!!!
Now, if we only continue to do the same things as we have in the past AND reduce the barriers to entering the boundary surveying profession, the ability to make a living surveying boundaries will increase. What was that old saying about the definition of insanity??
This is exactly the "thinking" that has brought us to this point. The complete misconception that a mere 3 credits in boundary law & legal descriptions (no, not 3 credits is each, one 3 credit class for both boundary law & legal descriptions) and a few years staking curb & gutter, creating topo's, and "staking" boundaries (whatever that is - perhaps "engineering speak" for expressing a professional opinion, in accordance with relevant boundary law, on the location of the legal boundary between two estates?) is more than enough to hang a shingle and declare oneself a "Professional Land Surveyor"
[sarcasm]No wonder we leave these important decisions to licensing boards filled with engineers.[/sarcasm]
Duane
I AGREE. Thank you for nailing it!
Like other professions
I also find it quite interesting how territorial different "types" of Surveyors can be.
How about getting a good solid education, good solid experience and a good solid test?
Then when you pass hopefully you are a "good solid" professional that can choose what parts of the profession to practice.
Like other professions
> Bingo.
I'd like all the other surveyors reading this to ask themselves a question I've asked myself:
How much of your boundary experience have you obtained before AND how much after licensure?
mmmmkay?
Paul,
I'm going to have to disagree on several points. While the measurement side of construction and topographic surveys may not be overly complex, there are a few things being overlooked. Methods and sequence of construction are essential pieces of the puzzle for a good construction surveyor. He better have a solid understanding of zoning as well. We all know who is on the carpet when things go awry. The topographic and resource Surveyor needs to have a good handle on basic design and modeling. Without that there will be delays and return trips (think $$$).
Granted these will not help in determining a boundary location, but they are valuable skills that don't come after a year or two. They also reinforce our attention to detail and proficiency with our equipment. I have found in my own career that every facet of what we do improves my abilities in other areas. I suppose it's a matter of perspective. My approach is to look for applications for the things I know. Even my seminary days make me a better surveyor. The processes and rules for determining intent of ancient texts helps me frequently, but I digress.
For 35 years I have performed a wide variety of tasks. Construction staking, topo, remediation, monitoring, boundary and more. Without the variety I would not be half the boundary Surveyor I am today. It puzzles me why anyone would exclude these from the things we are licensed to do. That view in no way means I support removal of the most essential of our duties (boundary) from the law. Recognizing the value of one service does not require me to devalue another...
Many construction surveyors make top wages. Way up there. Why is that?
Like other professions
:good:
Very Good Post, Paul, in Pa. I wished I'd a Said all that!!!
I heard another surveyor say it like this one time: "He learned all he is gonna learn, in his first 6 months of surveying. Now, he is just repeating all the mistakes he learned to make, during his first 6 months, and he calls it ""20 yrs experience...""
Ya!
Get em sam!
N
REAL SURVEYING IS BOUNDARY SURVEYING. Period. Boundary work is what a surveyor does.
Tying surveying to engineering and/or cartography is just plain wrong. All of these fields should be separated.
Engineers can design the stuff based on a boundary survey by a surveyor and a base map prepared by a cartographic tech. ONLY the Surveyor should define the boundary location and the location of any and all structures existing or proposed on the ground. Surveyors apply the geometry to precisely locate the boundary and its relationship to all the structures.
Surveyors can do the GPS and/or other ground data location which is then turned over to the cartographic guy for the preparation of the topo map.
I know some states like Florida license people as "Surveyor and Mappers" and that is, IMHO, foolishness.
I don't want to stir up a hornet's nest here because I KNOW for a fact that every surveyor on this board KNOWS he is also an expert mapping guy. After 44 years of observation, I would conclude that only 10% of that group qualify. Sorry but there it is.
So many surveyors have sent me their topos that just made my butt crimp shut when I looked at them. Remaining diplomatic is VERY difficult. Then you talk to me about Major and Minor contours and cannot understand why my face goes red and my blood pressure spikes. OR they ask me, "Can you clean your drawing up and take all those weird short lines off the contours?" and I have to ask them, "You don't know what a depression contour is do you?". Blank stare. Palm slap.
I AM NOT an engineering drafter. I DO NOT do engineering drawings. I live for a challenging topo or a really good boundary survey or a complex ALTA survey.
There is a difference in what we do.
To License someone in my craft that has no real training or knowledge of my craft while not allowing testing and/or certification and licensing in my craft is just confusing to me.
This from Curtis Brown in 1961 (I think it has changed, technology now provides us with a lot more expert now measurers than then):
Without superior knowledge, we have an inferior profession. … One of the reasons for giving surveyors
the exclusive privilege of marking boundaries is to prevent the unskilled from monumenting lines that encroach on the bona fide rights of
others. … The major deterrent to our becoming a learned profession is our low requirements for the right to practice. So long as we have
low admission requirements, we will have low standards of practice and low public opinion. … We prove by our own survey monuments
that we are incompetent, since we cannot all arrive at the same location using the same deed. Brown, Curtis M., The Professional Status of Land Surveyors, 1961, “Surveying and Mapping,” Vol. XXI, No. 1, at 63-71.
Some one posted a possible "solution" would require all new licenses to have a four degree in surveying.
In the states that offer no B.Sci in land surveying, this would become a very tall order to fill.
The colleges and tech schools that offer an Associates in surveying... what would be the prefered "ratio" of coursework;
technical layout/instruments
technical positional location
boundary control and establishment doctrine
technical drafting/drawing
business practices
Fitting all that into a two year program is difficult, I'm going to guess.
Some 2 Year Programs Require up to 30 Surveying Credits
And some require up to 74 credits total.
Most bachelor programs require 42-45 credits.
Some states only require a surveying certificate, 12-15 credits.
It is not necessary that a state have a survey degree within it's borders to require it for professional practice.
The following states do not have degree programs within their borders:
CT, DE, HI, IA, NE, RI and VT.
Some may have certificate programs but I have not really compiled certificate programs.
Looking at Connecticut, PLS requirements vary from a 4 year degree and 3 years experience to no degree and 16 years experience.
It is interesting to look a Nebraska law which includes wording not only regarding US approved education, but Canadian education also.
Paul in PA
Some 2 Year Programs Require up to 30 Surveying Credits
Interesting points you make Paul. If a person ever wants a retro-look at where they've been, dig out your transcript from whatever college you had. I was humored by a couple of the grades in dumb stuff like humanities, speech, even a year of economics (C's and one D in some dumb HU course). Looking back... good call on their part to make them core courses.
Being one of those with a BS in Forestry with Surveying major, the total credits at the time I received that were direct surveying classes was 28. Still have the books. Toss in all the parallel courses within the forestry program and add another 82 or so (lots of measuring and data compilation). Some business law, soils technology, statistics, statics, hydrology, and a bunch of other stuff credits it all added up to 213. Mich Tech was on quarters then, not semesters. Not sure what that means except it seems they cram an 18 or 16 week semester into 10 or 12 week quarters. The bonus is more exposure to oddball stuff that's not really interesting at the time, and more homework. The other bonus is the course is over in a couple months and not half a year.
No secret that I'm fully on page and fully support a 4 yr BS degree in at least a related program that cannot issue you a PE license at the get-go - to get a PLS license in any state. Credits are over rated IMO. The rubber hits the road in the real world where you gain experience actually doing things while working with a mentor. Then you get to actually pass examinations, which coincides with Pauls original point.
Regarding Florida "Mapper" title
Greetings cptdent,
Not about to do research into the matter just to make this post...so, if I'm wrong I'm just wrong. Anyway, I seem to recall that in Florida Photogrammetrists had their own separate certification, and it was completely separate form surveying and not controlled by our Board. That Professor Dave Gibson made the pitch that we (surveyors) expand our field to include the photogrammetrists. Every one (ok...maybe not e-v-e-r-y-o-n-e) got behind the push, and as a result automatically, all certified photogrammetrists were grandfathered into surveying, while surveyors were granted the right to offer photogrammetry services (subject of course to the "having the necessary education to know what you're doing). That was when the title "Surveyor & Mapper" started being used in Florida, with the "mapper" title meaning that we were also allowed to offer photogrammetric services, and surveyors no longer had to make direct measurements on the ground for certification of info depicted on a map. If this recollection is wrong my apologies to the offended.
ubenhavin(?)
>GPS, mapping, topographic surveys, construction stakeout and as builts are nothing more than mechanically repetitive mathematic exercises.
I don't think I particularly agree with that, but if you screw up those, you find out reasonably soon. It may be expensive once, but you don't go on making the same mistakes for years.
Boundary is different in that it may be decades before anybody figures out that you screwed up, and have screwed up hundreds of surveys in that time. Meanwhile structures have been built, property exchanged and subdivided, etc., to the point that there is no good fix to the mess.
If I were in charge of setting requirements, I'd require at least 5 semester-hours (need more?) of boundary principles and case law, the equivalent of one full-time year of boundary work, and some number of survey jobs put before a peer review committee, before licensing for boundary work. I wouldn't care about degrees or other classes.
The other sub-disciplines need their own education and experience, but their results will be better monitored.
213 Quarter Credits Equal 160 Regular Credits
Not to far off track for a multi discipline degree, usually a 5 year program.
In reviewing a lot of surveying programs I believe 30 credits is an absolute minimum for an AS degree. Some states (PA included) allow a BS CE to apply for PLS with as few as 10 credits, a few others require 12. We do so many different things in surveying that 10-12 credits is only a start. Penn State has a 5 year CE and Surveying program.
I graduated with 142 credits, 6 in surveying, and a BS CE. Subsequently I took college level accounting (3), AutoCAD (3), business law (7), legal research (3), real estate law (3) and 36 additional surveying credits. PA law says I could have applied when I finished my 4th course (12 credits total), but at that time was still lacking in the 5 year total of boundary surveying experience. I believe my total was at 36 credits when I finally did sit. Since I passed the FLS (92) and PLS (88) in one weekend I could have scraped by with a passing score maybe at 20 credits but would not have been as knowledgeable as one should be.
I saw applicants with little or no education just banging away, year after year, trying to hit the magic 70% jackpot. I am of the opinion if one fails to pass in 3 tries, that individual should be required to get additional credits before reapplying. Whether that should be 3 or 6 credits would be open to professional discussion.
Paul in PA
Actual Surveying Experience and follow up for Paul ?
Just another thought on this rainy soon to be cold day on much of Paul's idea of bringing education to yet another full gallop on the potentially best resource for those folks seeking smartness.
Does being a beerlegger count for PDH's? I'm sure that Wendall would gladly provide a certification if somebody has, oh lets just say 100 hrs of posting per year. No, lurking does not qualify!!
So lets all join hands an give a big applause to Wendall, Angel and his crew for the best resource available for anything in the surveying world. No doubt they love it, and so do we.
🙂
Actual Surveying Experience and follow up for Paul ?
A few of us already have a PhD's worth of PDH's from this wonderful site. Perhaps I'll give myself a raise.