2009 Manual now $75 at ACSM

nice!

But that is still too high!

Great, is ACSM refunding the difference for those who bought it for $125? I just got mine a short time ago.

Maybe ACSM is dumping their stock as I hear that a free digital version is on its way according to discussions at recent State conventions.

I wish I waited. Now I feel that I was taken advantage of.

Before anyone gets their underwear in a knot,perhaps the problem is not solely with ACSM.

From the BLM website:

http://www.blmsurveymanual.org/

"The Public Land Survey System Foundation (PLSSF) has formally partnered with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) for the publishing of the 2009 Manual. The PLSSF has also formerly partnered with the American Congress on Surveying and Mapping (ACSM) for the distribution of the 2009 Manual. Orders of the Manual are accepted at the ACSM e-store"

"A few professional surveyors have asked us about the availability of a digital version of the Manual of Surveying Instructions (2009). While we want to provide the Manual to as many users as possible, and be in synch with modern technologies, we are still considering some issues pertaining to copyright and license matters. Possible approaches to making the 2009 Manual available digitally may include sale of the book through a digital book-reading system (like Kindle) and other approaches. For now, however, we are not placing a purchasable or free version on the internet. We appreciate your understanding."

Perhaps there's more to this than ACSM "taking advantage"...after all, they probably have no control over the "list price".

I paid $22.00 for my first one in 1990. Got it from the Government Book Store in San Francisco.

I think my dad paid about $7.50 for his, which I now have.

In any event, PLSSF, which is administered through ACSM, made at least $50/copy for over a year since it was first available in 2010. I bet they are still making a profit selling it for $75. ACSM is surely taking something off the top for their "handling".

Why wasn't the Manual available through the Government Printing Office like previous editions? It would have been sold close to cost which should be no more than $50. GPO printed the Manual for BLM internal use, so why wasn't it available to the general public for purchase?

I wonder what was GPO's cost to publish the Manual?

I suppose the celebration has subsided.

Crime that it is not offered on-line as a searchable .pdf

And I dont think I exagerate.

It is at least absurd, and personally I think that ASCM taking advantage does not help their true constituents.

Searchable .pdf brings us into the last century. Give me an app on my cell phone if you want to move into this century.

IF they really cared about getting the info out, they would make it really available. Yeah, I know they whine about copyright, but this is a gov't manual...who holds the copyright? They do.

Do You Also Think ACSM/NSPS Membership Should Be Free?

Keep in mind that any organization such as these, to do any of us any good, they need to have money.

And frankly, a professional shouldn't expect to get all his knowledge for free.....everything has a price, including textbooks, professional journals and other materials each needs to keep up with their profession.

ACSM is not "taking advantage"....they are trying to raise money to do the work they are supposed to be doing to help us.
Who exactly are their "true constituents"?

Frankly, for a professional running a business, I don't think $125 is all that much, and certainly $75 is even better. Do you think doctors and lawyers carp at the cost of such items needed to maintain their practice.....we need to think like a business owner, not a technician.

Manual was built with taxpayers money

A publication that was developed over several years with taxpayers money should be available free or at least at cost. Better yet, a digital version could provide free access to all which would be a benefit to the surveying profession. This was done with the previous edition.

Those who want or need a book can buy it.

Whose benefit was served by ACSM being involved?

I think it makes us all look bad

> Keep in mind that any organization such as these, to do any of us any good, they need to have money.
>

Your first stab at this asked if ASCM should charge membership fees...they should! But they should not be able to extort moneys from those who do not want to be members.

> And frankly, a professional shouldn't expect to get all his knowledge for free.....everything has a price, including textbooks, professional journals and other materials each needs to keep up with their profession.
>
You are correct, except here in this state that whole manual is codified as part of the law of this land...that means that for you and I to buy a manual, whatever, but the everyday citizen is now forced to rely on you and I for some sort of mystery knowledge of the rules that govern their land. And by the way...you already paid for it with your taxes, and your grandkids will still be paying for it with theirs.

> ACSM is not "taking advantage"....they are trying to raise money to do the work they are supposed to be doing to help us.
> Who exactly are their "true constituents"?

Well, you and I should be...and they perpetuate the problem and give it this stain of respectability...Look, I think the idea is great, they can raise money for education, but when doing so limits the electronic access...

> Frankly, for a professional running a business, I don't think $125 is all that much, and certainly $75 is even better. Do you think doctors and lawyers carp at the cost of such items needed to maintain their practice.....we need to think like a business owner, not a technician.

My argument is this: Charge $125 for the book, let ASCM have all the $$$, but make available to the general public a .pdf version. That is all. Mainly, I think it looks bad for our profession, and while it is well meaning, it is still charging a large amount of money for something already paid for by tax dollars.

21st century

Really, I think that most of my frustration is that I feel like our profession is still stuck in the dark ages.

We don't pull chains anymore, and that is a good thing. We don't use a 300' steel tape, and that is a good thing. Etc... Let's move into the computer age here, and get this stuff searchable and on-line!

21st century

The best argument for posting the Manual online is that it's codified into some States' laws. I don't have to buy a book to get the CA Subdivision Map Act or Professional Land Surveyors Act or Code of Civil Procedure. I can go online and read or print the latest version for free. I suppose if I wanted a fancy printed version of any State law, I could buy one somewhere but there's no need to.

Of course, I guess a State could codify "The Cat in the Hat" and the publisher wouldn't have to provide it for free, but it was not paid for with tax dollars.

21st century

Some people think that such law is not a good idea (Lucas wrote an article basically making fun of states that codify the current manual).

Me, I haven't and probably will not make a judgement on that. I will note that it does make a Federal agency able to change the way surveying is done in this state. This has caused some real strong feelings in the recent past...

Two Questions.

1. You said, ".....in this state that whole manual is codified as part of the law of this land...that means that for you and I to buy a manual, whatever, but the everyday citizen is now forced to rely on you and I for some sort of mystery knowledge of the rules that govern their land."

When you walk into an attorneys office, there is shelf after shelf of law books, all of which pertain to "the law of the land". My question is, do lawyers get THEIR law books for free?

2. You said, "Charge $125 for the book, let ASCM have all the $$$, but make available to the general public a .pdf version."......then why on earth would anyone (including a surveyor) BUY one?

Two Questions.

I agree with Sicilian on this 100%

When a “professional” who charges $100+ an hour for his time can't afford a $125 book, then something is seriously WRONG. SURE, I would like to get one cheaper, but I ponied up the full price back when it was first offered, and I don't really worry about “being taken advantage of” just because the price came down.

I can just see the expression on the Judges face, when the attorney cross-examining a “Land Surveyor” asks about the 2009 Manual, and the “Land Surveyor” says that the “price was too high, so he didn't buy one!”

LOL
Loyal

Two Questions.

> When a “professional” who charges $100+ an hour for his time can't afford a $125 book, then something is seriously WRONG.

Loyal,

I am not sure what you are talking about...I never said anything about afford, in fact I don't think anyone did...did they?

> LOL

So I am not sure who you are laughing at. We should laugh at a community who accepts being backwards in technology.

Maybe I am spoiled here in WA, but all our RCW/WAC's are on-line and searchable...seems to make sense.

And, why does the "cowboy" care...NY doesn't care about PLSS does it?

Two Questions.

The BLM developed the Manual, which makes sense since they're the experts in this area of practice. Then they turned the publishing and dissemination over to private enterprise, thus saving the taxpayers the expense of having the government do what the private sector can arguably do more efficiently.
And still everyone whines. 😉
I'm with SC and Loyal, you're a professional, go get the tools you need to do your job and quit complaining. I paid $125 plus shipping. Big deal. I've spent more than that on dinner and drinks for the crew before.
DJJ

Two Questions.

Doug,

I just think it is silly not to have a .pdf version available...and ok, ASCM cares about you and me...but someone should have insisted on a version that goes on my computer, my smartphone, and my Kindle.

See, I think that the more available the info is the better. Personally, I cannot memorize every page of a manual that size.

Our office owns a copy, and really, it is so rarely needed that it sits on a shelf most of the time...and it is so big and bulky and expensive that it will never see the inside of a work truck, and probably never be read by a field guy until he wants to pass a test.

Is that unfortunate, sure, but instead of whining about what people "should" do, I think we should make things easier, not harder.

Honestly, it is stuff like this that makes people around me think that I am in a profession that is stuck in the 18th century...ok, maybe the 19th...

Dmyhill.

I agree that it would be good to have an electronic version, and one may eventually be available. I also am not a fan of the slick paper, weight and somewhat flimsy binding of the current version. Nothing's perfect.
I sort of like a book as opposed to a computer/kindle etc, but I'm probably kind of a luddite.
🙂
DJJ