So I have turned many rounds in the last week setting up control on two different sites. Since working solo and many obstacles and lots of needed working control I would set a few points at once. So BS FS and another point. All doing measured rounds. So far all has been working well a few outliers here and there but I have enough redundancy through rounds and rtk vectors and some static to sort everything out.
Today of course being Friday and I had a helper come down to help me squeeze in some control through some tight spots. Everything else was pretty much done. We had to do a little mapping around a building. So I had already had the gun set up be set up and we set a nail and a pk turned rounds to both moved up to the one point BS where we were and it’s over a foot ft off. I was like surely not all looked well checked everything. Looked through the file thinking I may have used a wrong number or even a number again already used nope. So I did a resection from original bs and another know I was going to close into gave it a new number all results looked good. Turned and staked out the other point not used in the resection but was in the rounds that had the bad point. Bam like .002 ft I mean great. I set Down and the point was in the point manager the bad one. But it was not showing up in the map screen at all. I have no idea what happened. Just a glitch or maybe somehow with my blind self I disabled something when reviewing the rounds or it caught a reflective something else. But the point is still not showing up on map screen anywhere but does have coordinates. Cannot inverse that bad point to any other point it’s as if it doesn’t exist. Weird but that’s why we do checks as we go so all is good. I have walked back and forth so much this week my dogs are tired. Topo rtk control is all fine solo. But running traverse with tripods and traverse kits gets a lot of extra walking in doing it solo. Especially on a plant type site where walking straight between points is not an option. So instead of walking 300 ft straight you have to circle around the maze of conveyors and pipes and buildings to get to and fro. Asphalt is not made for my feet and concrete. I want my pastures and woods back lol.
I have been screaming it from the mountain tops and nobody seems to listen. A one man crew may be more profitable but it's never safe. I don't care if you are using a robot or RTK, you are out there on your own where anything can happen, depending on the environment that you are working in.
Back in my last days as a PC, the company tried to send me out along to do work on an electric transmission easement and I refused to work alone, just for the mere fact that the rig had to be parked at the roadside and I would have had to hump all the gear a few thousand feel in because it was swampy.
I won the argument based on the time is money issue and had an IM come with me. We were not only half way through the day when I was hacking my way through the brush and came upon an invisible storm MH with no lid on it. The underbrush concealed it, I ended up 10' down in the MH, with a broken leg but had a radio that I could talk to my IM with for him to come find me and call for help. The FD responded and took me to the ER.
Absent me having a second person with me, my bones would probably still be at the bottom of that MH and I still have scars on my leg from hitting the rim on my voyage to the bottom.
I am with you on the safety aspect for sure. I think my new boss sorta came from the one man crew and is trying to implement that. But I have only agreed this week already put my foot down for next week. Trying to let the boss settle in and I am usually in the office but last couple weeks we have crews out of town and deadlines so I have just got the jobs done. I do have an escort on the sites so safety wise I am ok. Not as efficient when traversing though. And I am not 25 anymore so I slow down towards the end of the day a bit.
I would have to re run the numbers but say you have two people on a crew. Robot and gps. Rtk. So you theoretically already have all that equipment minus an extra data collector. But you can get a lot done on some jobs. I have done this recently on a job we did what two crews could not in half the time now we both have been around so we worked smarter and joined forces when needed as well this is a site we do every 3 months so we will do this same thing next month I just hope it’s the young bucks not us old guys.
On top of the safety issues of a one man crew. I say it does very little for the profession as a whole because that old Rodman or I man or complete newbie is one not getting mentored so not back filling the knowledge two that newbie or Imran or up and coming person is not asking question to that crew chief which makes him or her better by answering or realizing he or she doesn’t know that answer so they dive in to study . One of my old crew chiefs use to tell me for every 5 questions I asked that he could not answer or show me by close of business on a Friday he would buy me a beer . He was a 3rd generation surveyor and I learned so much under him especially reading plans and field fitting things . He challenged me and I challenged him I would bring questions from school to him he would give me homework. We worked hard and studied hard he was licensed but never stopped teaching or learning .
The mentoring argument really hits home with me. While we argue over degree requirements, state exams, and other 'barriers to licensure', we ignore the biggest danger to the survival of our profession. We cannot replace ourselves without internships and mentoring. My help doesn't learn when they are alone in the field, and I pass nothing on sitting by myself in the office. Every other profession understands this and structures duties accordingly. We need to adapt or surrender our title.<div>
As an aging surveyor of questionable health I have to agree with the safety argument. A simple mistake can elevate to a fatality fairly quickly. On the rare occasion I go out alone I force myself to act more conservative. It simply doesn't pencil out as any savings. That story from Chris should be a wake-up call for all of us. Glad he brought the I-Man that day...
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So true. Yes Chris has always had some very wise comments for sure.
I will have to admit this past summer I became very humbled. I have always been a kick the doors down and get a job done sorta person. But not surveying but was doing some fencing at the house and reached down just to pick up a dog leash. When I came too I was in pain like I have never been. That woke me up to just how vulnerable we truly are. Now if I am doing anything on the farm I try and have someone with me just encase. Even if it’s one of my girls. The 12 year old can drive and both no how to call for help. So Chris has a very good point on safety. One does not even have to be doing anything dangerous just stuff happens. I am surprised that insurance companies have not stated such. Some firms I know run one man crews all the time and it’s a powder keg waiting to blow I am sure. If I were solo I would probably set something up with wife so if I didn’t check in at a certain time she could send the troops.
If you operate in one man/robotic mode with a multi person crew mindset there will indeed be problems. The thinking has to be changed to accommodate the new technological reality.
The mentoring needs to be delivered in different ways. Which means that the work flows need to be modified. More time with your field guy before and after instead of during. As for safety, have a float guy that accompanies the PC when needed to act as a lookout, and works with different people on different days. That could be a newby, or it could be a PLS/PM depending on PC experience - that works for the mentoring part as well. If that's not possible flaggers are much cheaper than survey technicians. True, it's more management effort. Tough.
Yeah When robots started getting in every day crews hands I was training and a supply for a trimble distributor. I had had experience using robots in the field the old geodometers. At that time I started seeing how the daily workflows needed to be changed. A couple years back when I volunteered part time for a friend to help him out well his crews which was a one man band. It dawned on me after a bit why the profession had a hard time getting new blood. Unless your the type of personality that just doesn’t want anyone around. Then that hinders diversity in the long run for companies. Any way I worked a few months on the side before being asked to actually accept a position. Helping a friend. I didn’t even draw a check didn’t want to or ask. One I wanted to see if I could even survey and remember things as I had longed for doing boundary surveys again. I came on part time and developed some work flows to aid in that very situation of work flows. They had the latest equipment and software but had been using it as if it was still the 90’s. It took me about 6 months of designing control to meet the requirements for the state to prove to them a network solution was as good if not better than a typical closed loop traverse. I did several jobs on my own time my way plus there way before it sunk in the least squares and integrating rtk robot and static data was truly a great way to do things. Once I committed to becoming licensed and took the first exam and passed my friend told me to start looking as what he was allowed to pay was lower than I made in the early 90’s as a I man he pushed me to go full time with someone so I could get on the track to become licensed . I am now full time for over a year mostly in the office coordinator of crews so I have implemented new ideas and the crews have adjusted we usually have two man crews but sometimes like this past week I need to get some projects knocked out so I do it solo . I would love to have just a green Horne for one of my chiefs as he is already licensed and could actually train up a green horn very nicely I need another guy that’s a bit more experienced but not quite ready to be a PC to put with one of my other chiefs to challenge him a bit to push him above his comfort zone He is who came to help me yesterday I played the why this how do you do this role but it’s not the exact same but he is learning and I think he will make a good LS one day Just a great young man . Great attitude hard worker I wish I knew more to teach him I don’t do things like most surveyors I have seen I try and utilize the power of the equipment to make things run smoothly and more proficiently in the field to office So it is not wrong but other managers not use to seeing cross ties on control or double coding lines or doing resections and then tossing a point to tie it back into the main control just cause heartburn for those who want the simple fly or closed traverse loop. And rather have 2 to 3 points a tenth apart for drafting. I don’t get it at all but that’s what I see everyday in this world . All I know is 3 crews go to another state to do jobs for others and they come back and say can you tell them we could finish this in a lot less time and the control would be better than the issues we are having now . I am biting my tongue now days until I can get license and make the decisions . For now I have to . Except when I am processing the data then we do it the way that makes sense to meet the requirements and quality and time needed You are correct a totally different delivery platform to mentor for sure. The tools are so amazing and all it takes it to pause and do a bit of understanding to see how the basic fundamentals are still there and can be followed just not the same exact path we can now cut across the paths or make new ones and still have great if not better quality data for sure
I think we live in a time where triangulation triliteration and conventional means that have been used throughout history can now be easily used at any moment in any situation with confidence and very easily . When I did triangulation in the USMC it was a lot of crunching of numbers longhand. Not so much these days .
I would like to know what happened, if you ever get to the bottom of it. I believe it happened to me once too, but it was quite a while back.
I am hoping I just did something dumb not having my my cheating glasses on and disabled something while I was looking at residues. Hopefully I can figure it out in the office next week. Before I go do this last site. This is why I hate qa/acing my own work. But when we have projects that need done but not enough workers it’s challenging. If I figure it out I will posit back here for sure. I assume I did something wrong always. But it could be a glitch. Now my crew chief that helped me yesterday is a Leica guy. He has had some issues switching over to the Trimble for searching and all like you have had. He was a believer in the Leica power search until I worked with him in a very tight environment yesterday. He was searching vs gps search and also setting the search window and anticipating. Yesterday he saw the light as they say. He has worked for the past year with Trimble and 7 years with Leica. Once I could show him and actually get him to see how to maximize how and when to use joystick vs setting gps search and such. He was like oh my now I see what you have been saying. We were looking at dime size holes literally while dump trucks were constantly passing through our line of sites and of course darn landscaping trees. It took me a bit to realize how I needed to change parameters for this site it’s been a while. But once it clicked he even stated know way the Leica could keep up on what we were doing search and lock wise. Now I say this while contemplating an offer to move to a all Leica shop. I am not a brand particularly person. I usually try and maximize work flows for whatever I am using. No doubt in my mind that Leica has a better built total station. At least they owned the market back in the transit and digital transit and total station days. When known as Wild. They even now have a very good gps chip for sure. But I still think once you get the when to use what on the search and that issue with the time on semi active thing fixed. Which I still have been unable to replicate unfortunately you will be happy. Now I will say Leica tribrachs total stations stay in adjustment a lot better than Trimble. Even the Trimble traverse kit disappoints me in how easy it gets out of adjustment for sure. You truly have to baby them. I had to field adjust one Friday as I barely bumped it going through an area. Darn centering got off Between a set up.
There are definitely benefits to having everyone using the same equipment, even if it means certain people don't get to use what they prefer. Switching equipment/software will affect different people differently, depending on use case scenarios etc. I'm definitely better than I used to be at acquiring lock with Trimble, I just have to not try to be fast. If they could fix the joystick lag it would be much better. If I'm going to be in positions where I can't actually see the robot then I'll have to use integrated mode so that the GPS search is dead on.
I still haven't gotten any confirmation that the 7+ second semi active shots are not normal. I have found others that confirmed it's the same way for them, so unfortunately I think that's just the way it is.
We were around steel buildings conveyors running above but gps search from the 2d setting of internal on tsc7 and tweaking search window. So my crew chief learned something Friday. He uses the joy stick a lot and search not gps search. Well He was fighting that. He also was taking a Bs while stand next to the gun. To a set up target When he would try and use gps search of course it would point in the wrong direction. I said now I see why u use the joystick. So I showed him how to fix the issue. We probably had 150 to 200 ft distance longest distance and more closer. But I would put him in a place and say hold on. I would turn gun away and say now use gps search. Bam just a few seconds he was locked. But the trick is get that arc while walking and gun is locked on in tracking mode so it relates the dc gps and the rod. I do use 3d sometimes when lots of vertical change on a site so it gets close. Now we have the track lights only an d if that passes me twice I will know to hit cancel and re search etc. but I can read the lights form it pretty well so I kind of know where scope should be. I do use joystick sometimes you can change the speed on it as well. Slower or faster. Usually if I am using joystick it’s usually for vertical up or down is all or spinning the gun to see where it’s facing. I used one with the camera and that was nice once you got past the little delay. It was on a tsc3 and vx series so not the latest and greatest. But it is like you say getting use to whatever you have. Making the work flow match. I am sure I would do things differently using a Leica than how I approach with Trimble. Maximize the strengths. Every job is different so are equipment and software. They can all do the same just might be a different path.
So I figured out what I did. I think when I was going over the details of the 4 rounds between the two new points I somehow tapped the do not use option for that 1 point somehow. I need Trimble to put a hey dummy are you sure you meant to tap this you blind old man. Banner so I don’t do something stupid again lol. So it basically held part of the round somehow because the distance to the new point and the BS where the exact distance error I was getting. So I committed an I am an idiot function. lol. It never fails that when you are teaching someone something Murphy shows up. But glad I checked and re observed the point and corrected it in the field for sure.
Yeah I always find things go wrong more often when I'm in the middle of explaining something to the new guy.
One of my most annoying things with access is how it won't warn you if you store in the staking using a point number that already exists elsewhere....the newly staked and stored point will not be where you actually shot it. You won't know anything went wrong until you go to inverse it and it's nowhere near where it's supposed to be. I brought this up with Trimble and they didn't care to do anything about it.
Yeah I use a prefix always for staked points it prevents that issue and is automatic. I also when doing comps add an alpha character as well. So say staking property corners. The cab will be PC100 -PC110. Number range or comp100-comp110. Then when they stake to record that as staked they can in field add a prefix Like sc and it will be stored as SC_Comp100. I let them decide and it changes depending on what we are staking. That’s one thing I like about Trimble field and office software is I can or they can in field use a feature that eliminates the crews from having to type so much. If all corners will be the same say 5/8” rebar set that is pre loaded and it just makes it easy for everyone.
So the problem doesn't occur with prefix? We use suffix as that's what the office said they prefer. The layout calcs will all be a number...for example 228-274 for our pinning and they all get stored as 228p...274p. I don't know why, but prefixes look weird to me compared to suffix. Anyway, with a suffix on the calc, if that point name already exists there is no warning. It was a rare event (it was a large subdivision with multiple phases, which for specific reasons we had them all in one job as I needed certain points from the other phases, anyway there was already a bunch of lots with pinning points stored with the usual suffix and I was laying out a different set of the same lot numbers. The original calcs were not there because I always set to ignore when importing any duplicates, but the staked out points were. When I staked out and stored a new point, it stored that coord a few hundred meters away from where I just shot it, but I didn't know that because NO WARNING. I brought this to Trimble's attention through Jim Cox and they said they can't change it because some other clients stake out the same points over and over again and they don't want to have to press a confirmation because it will add time to their work. Lol.
