Carlson 2016 - Edit Raw Data for Traverse with Sideshots

When I traverse like this, I prefer to traverse between GPS pairs. I don't recall ever just tying into just one single point.

Try Youtube for Carlson training videos. They have a channel, and there are lost of videos on there on a lot of various topics.

Here's how I'd do it:

Add a point at the top under #88 with your fixed coordinates for the tie-in, call it 1 or whatever is free. To do this go to Add->Point->Blank Point Record
Go to tools->reduce direct-reverse
Change measurement at 722 from SS to CL (closing line)
Go to Process->Compass...for reference closing point enter 1 or whatever you call your fixed coordinate, uncheck apply angle balance unless you have a closing angle, use linear interpolation, use last measurement, calculate all elevations.
Press OK. Save coordinate file.

Pairs are more preferable, you'd be able to adjust the angles if you had a pair at the end. Be careful that you're not mixing grid and ground coordinates between GPS and total station.

Thank you both for the response and I will have to go ahead and try that procedure. A quick question regarding this adjustment, I also direct and reverse non traverse i.e. monumentation. How do I tell Carlson to avoid those and do I have to change anything to tell the program what my direct and reverse shots that were traverse points.

Kevin Rosa, post: 401906, member: 12288 wrote: Thank you both for the response and I will have to go ahead and try that procedure. A quick question regarding this adjustment, I also direct and reverse non traverse i.e. monumentation. How do I tell Carlson to avoid those and do I have to change anything to tell the program what my direct and reverse shots that were traverse points.

You want carlson to process those along with your traverse. It determines your traverse based on the progression of you occupying points (I believe) so you don't have to tell it what is a traverse measurement and what is a sideshot. It will do all the heavy lifting...pretty great tool.

JWCole, post: 401908, member: 10389 wrote: You want carlson to process those along with your traverse. It determines your traverse based on the progression of you occupying points (I believe) so you don't have to tell it what is a traverse measurement and what is a sideshot. It will do all the heavy lifting...pretty great tool.

Thanks again for the reply, I will have to give all of this a try.

I think JWCole has it. I've never closed to a single point, but his process sounds like it would work well. He is correct, this is an awesome tool.

I mostly agree with JW. Except that you don't have to add the known closing point to your rw5 file, as long as it exists in your dwg/crd. Also, you don't have to change from SS to CL, the processing will prompt you for the closing point anyway.

One thing I noticed too is that it looks like you don't have a BR on some of your setups, even though you have a FD/FR on your foresights. You need to have that for proper D/R reduction.

Hey guys I was wondering if you could run me through the process of traverse adjustment one more time. Here is my scenario I GPS to control points 3500 and 3501. I used 3501 as my first initial setup and back-sighted 3500. Continued along running traverse next point being 3652 and so on. Then I tied back into point 3501 with point number 3763 and then 3764 was my angular closure to point 3652. Could you lend a step by step to balance this without no adjustment to see actual closure and then step by step to closure using angle/compass. Thank you ahead of time, you have all been a big help thus far. I have attached a TEXT file of the RAW.

You should really be using SurvNet (least squares) for this. You are mixing GPS points in State Plane with total station observations on ground and two different instruments with different standard errors.

I ran it, but there are a couple issues that I see:

Your lat/lon places both points in the ocean. Ignoring that, your closing angle generally needs to be to a known point. Your initial baseline is STN 3501 BS 3500, so I would've expected your closing angle to be to 3500, but that's not even part of your closed loop. So, closing to 3652 doesn't really work.

As far as mixing SPC with ground traverse, based on your location, it looks like you're at/around the coast, elevation 71' aside. But maybe I'm missing something.

Another thing is performing your BD/BR first, then shooting a lot of sideshots, and then shooting your traverse point FD/FR. You should do these as a set, one after the other.

All that said, your traverse closed pretty well, just using compass rule with no angle closure. But the closure error was only 0.02'.

The only editing that I did was adding the point coordinates for your knowns, using what was in your text file.

SP,PN3501,N 727184.8941,E 1176534.8939,EL71.7745,--TRAV SPK
SP,PN3500,N 727521.1703,E 1176197.7697,EL77.6675,--TRAV SPK

And then used Tools/Reduce Direct-Reverse

Running without adjustment is Process/No Adjust.

Running compass, Process/Compass - you just have to click off the box for Apply Angle Balance, add your closing point, 3501, change the ending point to 3763, and that should be it.

JPH,

Thank you for all the information you provided, I will have to modify my field activity. You mentioned shooting the BD/BR first then shooting my sideshots then FD/FR. I am using the Carlson Surveyor 2 DC and I have been using this process: BD/BR then as stated shooting all of my sideshots then I would check the Backsight again then run FD/FR. However as you mentioned I do not see the BD/BR prior to FD/FR am I missing something in the setup of the Data Collector when traversing?

I typically turn my sets BD/BR, FD/FR, (3 sets), and then shoot my side shots. I do occasionally shot my side shots first, then figure out where I need to go, and set my point. I do, however, ALWAYS turn my sets together. I use Survey Pro, and then import the TDS file into Carlson's Raw Editor. I don't, however, use the Tools/Reduce Direct-Reverse. I don't know if you have to. I use the Compass Rule adjustment with the angle balance, and things seem to work out okay.

I have another year of webinars from That CAD Girl, and they have a webinar scheduled for early next year where they will be doing the traverse adjustment one again. I will need to make myself a note to ask about that.

I will have to look in my Data Collector, I must not have the functions set properly for traversing I am using SurvCE V4 which I am still learning prior, I was using Survey Pro. Thanks Jimmy for your response.

Kevin, the software doesn't care when you did the BD/BR, just that you did it and it then has what it needs to properly reduce all the FD/FR's that come afterward in that setup.

It depends on what DC/software you're using. Carlson SurvCE, you can just set the configuration for doubles on your BS and SS, and then re-do the setup right before shooting your doubles. Or with TDS/Survey Pro, you can just go to Multiple Sideshots, and it'll prompt you for doubles on your BS & FS.

I like that you're checking your BS right before doing a double, and I don't really have an issue with that. Some here are pretty serious about this stuff and are adamant that the only true method is to turn BD,FD,FR,BR, and not doing so isn't doing a true double. I'm less stringent, and feel that if you're checking your BS and your setup enough, with today's equipment, it's not much of an issue. As said, your error was only 0.02', so you're doing something right. Some wouldn't even bother adjusting that.

Tommy, with TDS doesn't it reduce the D/R angles for you? I think that the Survey Pro DC's that I've used always did that, so in the Carlson editor you don't need to do it. I always do it with the Carlson rw5 files, maybe out of habit. Not sure how to process without doing that, if it's possible, or if it is, if it makes any difference.

Thank you again for the response JPH, you both have been a huge help.

JPH,
I am trying to replicate your procedure for my adjustment. I did the following opened the RW5 added to points 3500 and 3501. Then performed process settings Balance Direct Reverse Vertical Angles, Balance Foresight-Backsight. Then I performed No-Adjust attached is my result is this correct without adjustment. I told it Ref closing points was 3501 and traverse was 3501 to 3763.

Huh, looks different from mine. I don't generally use Backsight reciprocals, if that's what you mean above. Mine H closure was slightly worse, but my V error was a lot better than what yours shows.

Going to look again see what I did wrong.

"As far as mixing SPC with ground traverse, based on your location, it looks like you're at/around the coast, elevation 71' aside."

I'm quoting myself here. What I meant here is that near the coast/lower elevations the difference between ground and grid isn't much, and in my opinion, negligible. But if you're somewhere else where it matters, Carlson does have the option to process using SPC, UTM, etc.