[QUOTE="Plumb Bill, post: 395812, member: 226...more and more firms will be OK with the lesser accuracy. Also, at what point will be equal to a survey product?
"Lesser" is a relative term. Data of all accuracies have the potential to be valid and appropriate... don't be a surveyor who attempts to distinguish good data from bad data based on accuracy. Part of your job as a surveyor is to determine what accuracy is appropriate to meet project/client objectives, advise your client, deliver that data in a competent, reliable, and cost effective manner - WITH Metadata. Sometimes this means data accurate to the nearest 100' is appropriate and sometimes it means data accurate to 0.01' is required (and beyond). Good surveyors use data of all accuracies appropriately.
Also... please don't confuse a technology with a profession. GPS, GIS, and UAS/UAV are technologies. The profession of surveying or geomatics may use any of these technologies in the course of performing professional activities. Conversely, non-survey activities may also use any of these technologies. It doesn't matter what software you are using, if you are making a map showing boundaries you are (in most, if not all of the USA) surveying.
Once again, we see that the differences in State law support widely different ideas about what surveying is.
The public cannot discern when a map on line is providing valid spatial relationships, yet they rely on them to make plans, build driveways, complain to their neighbor about the location of their rose bushes, and worse; the professional public: engineers, architects, building officials, etc. rely on them to make planning decisions - decisions that may set projects up for failure by providing BAD data (not simply inaccurate). There is a lot of public money spent developing these maps - many of them are not reliable - many of them will be dumped in a few years because nobody knows the source of the data and nobody can rely on them. I ask those in states that don't include this type of mapping under their definition: Who is protecting the public? Who is accountable for the proper acquisition (from the ground, water, air, or space) and presentation of the data?
Why not include these activities under your definition of surveying so that those creating the maps are accountable?
If you want to see your tax dollars spent wisely - put these projects under the control of someone who is licensed in geospatial matters and, most importantly, someone who is accountable.
Don't tell me that market forces and employee performance reviews will cure the problem. That simply hasn't panned out - there are poorly thought out online mapping projects starting today. End users don't know if they are being sold a bill of goods or if they are getting a good service/product.
Let's repeat this one more time: GIS is NOT a profession - it's software. GPS is not a profession - it's a measurement tool. UAS/UAV is not a profession - it's a platform for holding a measurement tool.
Evaluating evidence, managing measurements, classifying data, applying the appropriate rules of construction (boundary, mapping, etc) to the data, presenting the geospatial data in a useful format so that it becomes information that is appropriate for it's intended audience, documenting these activities, and advising clients of how to meet their geospatial needs (boundary, mapping, modeling) in the most cost effective manner - those are some of the things that a professional surveyor does in the USA.
If you don't have all of the technical skills required to get your client to where they need to be, then you build a team of competent individuals to meet those needs - a team that you lead and direct: programmers, database experts, field data collectors, photogrammetrists, etc. - Doctors don't perform each step of treatment, nor do they know how to do all of the tests. They rely on a team of radiologists, lab technicians, etc. BUT they are the professional who is responsible for the client.
I hope that I don't slip getting down off this soapbox.
"rant on"
The only problem I've seen with emerging technology is that some surveyors use it beyond its ability.
When the TS came out, a local surveyor actually was quoted in the newspapers claiming "we do not need to cut brush to survey any more".
CADD drafting came along with data collectors and FTF methods and I've see some real artistry and then there is that stickman drawing method that has alot of legends and tables and disclaimers and logos and seals, title block and a post card size drawing showing no details.
GPS came along and some are not simply claiming, they are out there every day double beeping their way thru the forests and think they are making surveys that are within state guidelines.
UAVs will certainly bring about some true to form "fly by land surveys" 😀
I can remember when a land owner was more in want of that large framed color picture of their home, ranchette or farm from as taken from a plane or helicopter than an actual correct land survey.
Thank GOD, there are many great surveyors who know how to use their tools correctly.
Clients have insisted that I use GPS to survey their land when it really was not that applicable, they simply had heard of it and wanted it.
I put an antenna on top of a prism and setup a base for pictures and show and when he left I broke out the TS and here we went into the forest doing both. TS rules so far over my PM3s. I do not have Nate's setup.
Too many clients don't care what method or how well it is done, they only care about how much.
"rant off"
I also have a degree in GIS, and I am a R.P.L.S. in Texas, and I taught a few college classes on GIS.
Some areas of the two overlap, mostly the ones we use everyday like the County Appraisal GIS map, others field do not relate much at all. Yes a lot of the GIS maps use data collected by Surveyors or with survey grade equipment.
I can also make a really beautiful map with GIS that is totally wrong for example the data is collected in State Plane coordiante system feet and I used a UTM meters in the GIS project from another zone. I can also make an ugly map in AutoCAD that is 100% correct, its just knowing what you are doing and what you are using.
Do you need to be a Surveyor to make a map for which neighborhoods or in which district for a little league team, I do not think so.
There is alot more to GIS than what a Surveyor can use it for, but it is dangerous when someone can really use a GIS program, and has no clue about coordinate zones, and just take date collector from several sources and throws it all in the program makes a great looking map and everyone thinks wow this looks great it must be correct.
I look at it as another tool to have in the truck to use for the right job. One of the ways I use my drone most often is to fly a site and compile a geo-referenced stitched image I use as a backdrop when connecting linework. It only takes minutes to fly, the rest is done with a program running on a computer that otherwise collects dust in my office. I don't charge my clients for it (unless they specifically ask for it), but it provides me with a graphical representation of what is on the ground at that time, which in the end saves me time and confirms my work. It's also a great visual aid for clients, municipalities, renderings, etc.
Then again, it leads to the job I had today where I earned a full days pay for a few pretty pictures, lol. 🙂
A Harris, post: 395835, member: 81 wrote: Too many clients don't care what method or how well it is done, they only care about how much.
Unfortunately this is the truth of our profession. We are no longer revered for our professional services. Just an hourly expense. I have to constantly defend my fees to clients. And I am always the first to blame when something doesn't add up.
Three times this week I had someone telling a client my surveys were incorrect.
Three times this week I had to prove my surveys correct to attorneys & contractors not knowing what they are doing/commenting on.
Surveyors were once respected by those who relied on our service. Now I feel because our clients treat us as tradesmen that reverence had long past.
Tired of defending my fees and work to those who can't add two plus two.
A Harris, post: 395835, member: 81 wrote: "rant on"
The only problem I've seen with emerging technology is that some surveyors use it beyond its ability.
When the TS came out, a local surveyor actually was quoted in the newspapers claiming "we do not need to cut brush to survey any more".
CADD drafting came along with data collectors and FTF methods and I've see some real artistry and then there is that stickman drawing method that has alot of legends and tables and disclaimers and logos and seals, title block and a post card size drawing showing no details.
GPS came along and some are not simply claiming, they are out there every day double beeping their way thru the forests and think they are making surveys that are within state guidelines.
UAVs will certainly bring about some true to form "fly by land surveys" 😀
I can remember when a land owner was more in want of that large framed color picture of their home, ranchette or farm from as taken from a plane or helicopter than an actual correct land survey.
Thank GOD, there are many great surveyors who know how to use their tools correctly.
Clients have insisted that I use GPS to survey their land when it really was not that applicable, they simply had heard of it and wanted it.
I put an antenna on top of a prism and setup a base for pictures and show and when he left I broke out the TS and here we went into the forest doing both. TS rules so far over my PM3s. I do not have Nate's setup.Too many clients don't care what method or how well it is done, they only care about how much.
"rant off"
There is a company now in my neck of the woods that advertises centimeter level UAV surveys.
I too agree with Mr. Harris. I think GPS & GIS are close enough to be considered together under the broader category of emerging technology. I am not a GIS expert but I have taken numerous GIS continuing education courses. It is like many other tools in that it is useful for what it was designed to do. My take is that it is a bunch of computer data bases that use the power of a computer to analyze data in an organized manner which would be very difficult if not impossible otherwise. Formerly, before beginning a survey of a unknown tract, I, like most other surveyors, would look at the county tax maps, aerial photos & then start looking for plats & deeds of the tract & the adjoiners. Basically, nothing has changed except the county tax map & the aerial photo is now called a GIS, mostly because it is part of a computer data base. GIS is a great tool for many types of studies & planning but it does not meet the definition of a land survey & can not meet the requirements set by most State land surveying laws as such. It is no more a boundary survey than the old tax map.
We should definitely stay abreast of new technology but should be able to distinguish between useful technology & computer gadgets & gimmicks that generally add nothing of value except to the vendor's bank account & should not forget established surveying principles & law.
"Webbed Feet" hit the nail on the head. I am not a GPS expert, I am a student of Geodetic surveying. I have learned a lot but I still have a lot to learn. The only thing I can add to what "Webbed Feet" says is that many that use GPS, like what has been said about GIS, don't understand it. I once took a job to survey some 28,000 acres of heavily wooded swamp that was mostly under about 3' of water when it was the dry season. All I can say about the gentleman in charge of the project is that I sincerely hope he is a better engineer than he is a surveyor. He didn't understand State Plane Coordinates nor did he understand errors associated with GPS surveying. He thought the whole project could be completed in a couple of weeks using GPS. Considering the number of outparcels & the vintage of the reference plats & deeds, the legal research would take longer than that. Sorry for adding yet another rant, but this is fresh in my mind & remains a very disturbing experience.
Scott Ellis, post: 395836, member: 7154 wrote: I also have a degree in GIS, and I am a R.P.L.S. in Texas, and I taught a few college classes on GIS.
Some areas of the two overlap, mostly the ones we use everyday like the County Appraisal GIS map, others field do not relate much at all. Yes a lot of the GIS maps use data collected by Surveyors or with survey grade equipment.
I guess that goes back to my original post where I question to what extent surveyors feel they should be "doing GIS" beyond providing data for a GIS or using a GIS. Should we be setting up geodatabases, writing python scripts, performing statistical and spatial analysis. All these areas are IT fields and I fail to see why the average surveyor thinks he is the automatic candidate to be doing such.
Again I see it as being a confusion between Geographic Information and Geographic Information Systems/Science. I don't see that we surveyors have missed any boat.
Jon,
Yes, I suppose you are right. I am not sure I completely grasp the technical distinction you are trying to make but I never saw GIS as essential to land surveying. All knowledge is good but nobody can be an expert in all things & all fields. I see GIS as more of a planning tool as the data has little relevance to survey grade positions. I have targeted GPS & geodesy as they are a natural extension of land surveying & boundary control. Not to belittle GIS, but I don't see it as part of land surveying. Technology seems to be directed more toward communication & collecting data than accurate, survey grade positioning. I don't hold myself out as a GPS expert but I know enough to know an alarming number of GPS users (for survey applications) don't understand what they are doing. I too don't think I am missing any boat.
Totalsurv, post: 396509, member: 8202 wrote: I guess that goes back to my original post where I question to what extent surveyors feel they should be "doing GIS" beyond providing data for a GIS or using a GIS. Should we be setting up geodatabases, writing python scripts, performing statistical and spatial analysis. All these areas are IT fields and I fail to see why the average surveyor thinks he is the automatic candidate to be doing such.
Again I see it as being a confusion between Geographic Information and Geographic Information Systems/Science. I don't see that we surveyors have missed any boat.
Yes - we should be setting up geodatabases, writing python scripts, performing statistical and spatial analysis. We should also be managing other specialized individuals who do these things. These activities are nothing new for surveyors - we did this in the 1970s with HP calculators where you had to know how to program. In the 80s we got the HP 80 series computers before there were PCs - we sent large jobs off to Boeing mainframes to analyze our networks, we managed data via a variety of databases - we all write programs using HP Basic, VBA, Python, C++, etc. to organize, manipulate, analyze, and present geographic data. We've been doing these things before ESRI existed.
Geospatial data services are what surveyors do - we are the original geospatial analysts - sure the tools have evolved but SO HAVE WE. There is no way that an "IT" person without the 4 year education that a modern surveyor (or an older surveyor who has kept up) gets (coordinate systems, geodesy, geometric comps, geodetic comps, errors and adjustments, database design, programming, statistics, least squares adjustments, boundary law, measurement techniques, mapping, etc.) is more qualified to oversee the acquisition, management and analysis of geospatial data than a properly educated and experienced surveyor.
Surveying is a broad field and not every surveyor is the ideal "candidate" for this work. However, within the ranks of the survey community there are many individuals who are imminently qualified to develop and/or manage geographic information systems. Additionally, these individuals are licensed and accountable for the work. I believe that the sooner entities who develop gis recognized this the fewer "junk" datasets and systems there will be.
Maybe it's different in Ireland - but in the USA there is no group more qualified and appropriate to oversee geographic information systems than the appropriate individuals from the community of licensed surveyors.
JKinAK, post: 396897, member: 7219 wrote: Yes - we should be setting up geodatabases, writing python scripts, performing statistical and spatial analysis. We should also be managing other specialized individuals who do these things.
If this is what you are doing on a daily basis then I suggest that your job description would not be surveyor but would be GIS Technician or Analyst and you would be considered an IT professional within an organisation. This is my point, GIS Analyst or technician is a career in it's own right not just an addition to a surveyors portfolio.
JKinAK, post: 396897, member: 7219 wrote:
Surveying is a broad field and not every surveyor is the ideal "candidate" for this work. However, within the ranks of the survey community there are many individuals who are imminently qualified to develop and/or manage geographic information systems. Additionally, these individuals are licensed and accountable for the work. I believe that the sooner entities who develop gis recognized this the fewer "junk" datasets and systems there will be.
I never suggested that surveyors are not capable of doing GIS. I am a surveyor who has also done GIS work.
JKinAK, post: 396897, member: 7219 wrote:
there is no group more qualified and appropriate to oversee geographic information systems than the appropriate individuals from the community of licensed surveyors.
There is a group more qualified and appropriate to oversee GIS. They are people who have studied and trained specifically in GIS and have pursued that career path specifically. That career path is a distinct path from the path a surveyor takes.
To be honest it smacks of the same attitude the general public have towards surveying. Sure it's easy I could do it no problem. It will only take half a day right!
JKinAK, post: 395833, member: 7219 wrote:
Let's repeat this one more time: GIS is NOT a profession - it's software.
Really?? Wow unbelievable. Sounds awfully like some peoples attitude to surveying. Can't believe I just read this!!!
Accounting is NOT a profession - it's software
Network Administration is NOT a profession - it's software
Graphics Design is NOT a profession - it's software
Cryptoanalysis is NOT a profession - it's software
Air Traffic Control is NOT a profession - it's software
Fashion Design is NOT a profession - it's soft wear
Totalsurv, post: 396916, member: 8202 wrote: Really?? Wow unbelievable. Sounds awfully like some peoples attitude to surveying. Can't believe I just read this!!!
There are a few things happening here that make it appear that our opinions are worlds apart:
- The acronym ÛÏGISÛ has multiple definitions (Geographic Information System, Geographic Information Science, Geographic Information Services, and more) AND these acronyms are used as both a noun and a verb.
- The term ÛÏProfessionÛ has multiple definitions ÛÒ in itÛªs loosest sense, it means something you do for money. At the other end of the spectrum the definition includes consideration of education, intellect, licensing, accountability, confidentiality, public welfare, self-regulation, ethical codes, etc. ThereÛªs a good discussion of ÛÏwhat is a professionÛ from an ethics perspective at http://web.nmsu.edu/~dscoccia/323web/323profeth.pdf . I believe that to qualify as a profession, at a minimum there has to be advanced education, experience, and enforceable accountability. If a doctor or a lawyer or a surveyor operates incompetently, they can lose their license to practice: thatÛªs accountability.
- GIS (in all definitions of the acronym) is used in a wide variety of fields (see University of Southern CaliforniaÛª http://gis.usc.edu/msp-resources/articles-blogs/the-6-top-industries-for-gis/ for their perspective on where GIS is used). I donÛªt have any statistics to back it up but I wouldnÛªt be surprised if the majority of GIS use falls outside of the definition of surveying (since every state has different laws ÛÒ for the purpose of this discussion IÛªll use the NCEES model law definition ÛÒ which is more broad than most state laws)
SoÛ? factoring all of that in: If you consider GIS to stand for something that is an activity (services) and you believe that anything is a profession if you get paid to do it ÛÒ then yes I agree that GIServices would qualify as a profession.
DonÛªtÛª get me wrong, I have total respect for those individuals who are experts in the field of geographic information science and technology. There are some very bright and well educated individuals in the field. Unfortunately, (just like in surveying), there are also some not so brilliant, minimally competent (even incompetent), poorly educated, and ethically compromised practitioners. So why would I consider GISciences practitioners to NOT be professionals?
Because in the majority of the USA to be a ÛÏGISÛ practitioner, there are none of the required elements of a profession:
- required testing
- minimum education requirements
- minimum experience requirements
- continuing education requirements
- accountability
- the list goes on Û?.
I hope that my earlier posts didnÛªt come across as saying that ALL GIServices are survey activities ÛÒ they arenÛªt. So not all GIServices need to be overseen by surveyors. But if your GISystem is producing maps (web based, printed, whatever) that show man made features or boundaries or topography then the activity of producing those maps falls under the legal definition of surveying in the NCEES model law and in many states (but not all).
Geographic information is what surveyors do - maps are what surveyors do - reports based on spatially related information is what surveyors do. Surveyors provide GIServices but not all GIServices require a surveyor - just those that fall under the definition of surveying in your jurisdiction.
JKinAK, post: 397033, member: 7219 wrote: There are a few things happening here that make it appear that our opinions are worlds apart:
- The acronym ÛÏGISÛ has multiple definitions (Geographic Information System, Geographic Information Science, Geographic Information Services, and more) AND these acronyms are used as both a noun and a verb.
- The term ÛÏProfessionÛ has multiple definitions ÛÒ in itÛªs loosest sense, it means something you do for money. At the other end of the spectrum the definition includes consideration of education, intellect, licensing, accountability, confidentiality, public welfare, self-regulation, ethical codes, etc. ThereÛªs a good discussion of ÛÏwhat is a professionÛ from an ethics perspective at http://web.nmsu.edu/~dscoccia/323web/323profeth.pdf . I believe that to qualify as a profession, at a minimum there has to be advanced education, experience, and enforceable accountability. If a doctor or a lawyer or a surveyor operates incompetently, they can lose their license to practice: thatÛªs accountability.
- GIS (in all definitions of the acronym) is used in a wide variety of fields (see University of Southern CaliforniaÛª http://gis.usc.edu/msp-resources/articles-blogs/the-6-top-industries-for-gis/ for their perspective on where GIS is used). I donÛªt have any statistics to back it up but I wouldnÛªt be surprised if the majority of GIS use falls outside of the definition of surveying (since every state has different laws ÛÒ for the purpose of this discussion IÛªll use the NCEES model law definition ÛÒ which is more broad than most state laws)
SoÛ? factoring all of that in: If you consider GIS to stand for something that is an activity (services) and you believe that anything is a profession if you get paid to do it ÛÒ then yes I agree that GIServices would qualify as a profession.
DonÛªtÛª get me wrong, I have total respect for those individuals who are experts in the field of geographic information science and technology. There are some very bright and well educated individuals in the field. Unfortunately, (just like in surveying), there are also some not so brilliant, minimally competent (even incompetent), poorly educated, and ethically compromised practitioners. So why would I consider GISciences practitioners to NOT be professionals?
Because in the majority of the USA to be a ÛÏGISÛ practitioner, there are none of the required elements of a profession:
- required testing
- minimum education requirements
- minimum experience requirements
- continuing education requirements
- accountability
- the list goes on Û?.I hope that my earlier posts didnÛªt come across as saying that ALL GIServices are survey activities ÛÒ they arenÛªt. So not all GIServices need to be overseen by surveyors. But if your GISystem is producing maps (web based, printed, whatever) that show man made features or boundaries or topography then the activity of producing those maps falls under the legal definition of surveying in the NCEES model law and in many states (but not all).
Geographic information is what surveyors do - maps are what surveyors do - reports based on spatially related information is what surveyors do. Surveyors provide GIServices but not all GIServices require a surveyor - just those that fall under the definition of surveying in your jurisdiction.
The courts have held that a survey is done on the ground, not on a piece of paper. The map or plat is merely a representation of what was done on the ground. Surveyors, of course, use & contribute to the GIS data base. Surveyors are said to have, "Quasi Legal Authority", in that they are the professionals that establish & retrace property boundaries. Courts make rulings on contested boundaries but they rely on surveyors almost entirely to present the arguments. Today, the State I live in has a separate classification for a "GIS" surveyors license. A GIS license does not allow you to perform a boundary survey or a geodetic survey as I interpret it. It also does not allow a Land Surveyor to offer GIS services. I quote in part from - Stinger V. Yelle, 174 Wash. 402, "A 'profession' is not a money -getting business. It has no element of commercialism in it. True, the professional man seeks to live by what he earns, but his main purpose & desire is to be of service to those who seek his aid & to the community to which he is a necessary part." Also, "Professional stature cannot be attained by self-proclamation; it must be earned, & others must bestow the title on the profession".* Should you accept that definition, there are no professions today. Law has become a license to gouge & so much for the notion that the fee should reflect the value of the service. Should GIS be considered a profession? I can't answer that question as it is for others to decide. However, it is not a boundary survey or a geodetic survey.
*Brown, Robillard, Wilson, "Evidence & Procedures for Boundary Location" 2nd. edition.
