General UAV practice

I'm pretty positive that even under the new rules you're mandated by the FAA to have a visual observer. One man can't watch the controller and the aircraft; it would be irresponsible to do otherwise.

I seriously don't know the answer to this, but in order to obtain a UAV certificate are you required to have a medical certificate also? From a pilots perspective, I agree with Lee.

I'm studying for the FAA exam now. No medical certificate required, and visual observer is no longer required, but I think it is good practice. We use preplanned flights controlled by a laptop with radio link. The only time I've seen our pilot use manual control is to override the default landing location. We have 2 fixed wing and 1 quadcopter, photogrammetry in primarily rural areas. Always maintain visual contact, use multiple flights as needed.

Rick Taylor, post: 430769, member: 304 wrote: We use preplanned flights controlled by a laptop with radio link. The only time I've seen our pilot use manual control is to override the default landing location.

I haven't gotten my 107 operator's certificate because there's no reason for me to do so, but I'm type trained and certified on our fixed wing and from my training I know that you can't safely operate that thing by yourself - things happen too quickly, and regardless of the fact that the flight is preprogrammed you still have to look at the controller to monitor the battery, flight status, etc.

I had a training flight just last week where I practiced aborting a landing at 60' - about as low as you'd want to try that - and as I said, things happen VERY quickly. I question whether in an unplanned emergency even a quick thinking operator could successfully pull that off. I knew I was going to do it and was prepared to do it, it would be a different story entirely if it was an emergency.

IMHO in the landing approach the VO should be watching the plane and calling out the status to the pilot, who should be focused on the controller.

I just gave the 107 regs a quick read and couldn't find anyplace where it specifically required more than one person (the PIC). But I still wouldn't do it - not with a fixed wing anyhow, maybe with a DJI or something similar.

Lee D, post: 430788, member: 7971 wrote: I just gave the 107 regs a quick read and couldn't find anyplace where it specifically required more than one person (the PIC). But I still wouldn't do it - not with a fixed wing anyhow, maybe with a DJI or something similar.

Was just discussing it with our UAV group and we are in agreement that a visual observer is not required but you should have one especially in an urban setting. We currently have a similar setup as R. Taylor above and follow the same guidelines for flight. Just curious about everyone else's perspective on this. Thanks for your input.

Lee D, post: 430788, member: 7971 wrote: I just gave the 107 regs a quick read and couldn't find anyplace where it specifically required more than one person (the PIC). But I still wouldn't do it - not with a fixed wing anyhow, maybe with a DJI or something similar.

Here's the relevant Part 107 reg:
5.7.2 VO. The use of a VO is optional. The remote PIC may choose to use a VO to supplement situational awareness and VLOS. Although the remote PIC and person manipulating the controls must maintain the capability to see the UA, using one or more VOs allows the remote PIC and person manipulating the controls to conduct other mission-critical duties (such as checking displays) while still ensuring situational awareness of the UA. The VO must be able to effectively communicate:
ƒ?› The small UA location, attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;
ƒ?› The position of other aircraft or hazards in the airspace; and
ƒ?› The determination that the UA does not endanger the life or property of another.

For something that's optional, the FAA spends a lot of ink talking about it. I consider a VO a "best practice" item, and I agree with Lee about the fixed wing units. They cover a lot of ground and move fast. Two sets of competent eyes are always a good idea.

Rick Taylor, post: 430794, member: 304 wrote: the remote PIC and person manipulating the controls

To me the ambiguity lies in the fact that this phrase appears not once but twice in the reg quoted above. However, I was unable to find anything that said that the remote PIC and the "person manipulating the controls" couldn't be the same person.

Ariddle, post: 430740, member: 8350 wrote: Doing some research on how companies use UAV's safely in their practice. We currently have used them for about everything from surveying to inspection but i am curious how other companies are going about it. We are ready to start using UAV's in our daily survey routines and have many licensed commercial pilots. We have a quad-copter, fixed wing and a crew chief that is fully trained, licensed and insured. My early vision was that a crew chief could go out and perform the drone work one-man and complete all other site work after this. Our company is considering making all flights two-man so i am trying to get an industry feel for common practice and thoughts on level of risk. If you have any other input on how you perform this type of work go ahead and put it out there. I have some questions below.

• When using a UAV for surveying are you using a visual observer or doing it one man?

When possible we use at least one visual observer. That is our standard operating procedure. The rules, as I read them do not require a VO.

Ariddle, post: 430740, member: 8350 wrote: If you are in a larger company are they requiring you to have a visual observer for insurance purposes?

Our insurance has no requirement for this.

Ariddle, post: 430740, member: 8350 wrote: If doing it one man are you just surveying smaller areas to keep line of sight as required or larger areas as well? Break it up into multiple flights?

Part 107 requires the RPIC to have VLOS at all times (except momentary loss of sight). So, one of the problems with larger sites will be compliance. You must break it up. At this point you cannot use multiple VO's to "extend" the vision of the RPIC without a Waiver or Authorization from the FAA (from what I know).

Ariddle, post: 430740, member: 8350 wrote:

• Do you use a fixed wing or multi-rotor setup? If you use a fixed wing do you have a visual observer or is it case by case?

We use quads. But, the rules are the same for both.

Ariddle, post: 430740, member: 8350 wrote: Do you work in mostly rural or mostly urban areas?

Urban and Suburban

Ariddle, post: 430740, member: 8350 wrote: If you have a lot of experience with multi-rotor what are your thoughts on risk of wrecking into something that can cause an incident? Any fly-aways etc.?

Some consider 30 hours of actual stick time as the threshold of "a lot of experience". I am slowly getting there...but at 15-20 minutes a pop, it is not easy. (Probably will take over 100 flights, and it rains a lot here.) But, I am VERY CONCERNED every time I fly. I think it is my responsibility to have that concern. But, the likelihood of running into something and all the rest is variable on how you use the aircraft, the type of aircraft, and other variables. 99.99% of what the FAA presents on a monthly basis is about risk assessment. It is the number one job, in my opinion, of a drone operator. My nine year old can pilot a drone, but she isn't qualified to assess risk. (Oh yeah, know how to fly that thing when GPS and autonomous goes wrong.)

We recommend to our pilots to only operate solo if there is no chance of the flight area being compromised by the public.

I personally don't think it is terribly difficult to operate a flight that is a programmed, solo. If you're manually flying, it can be difficult depending on the situation.

The company insurance only cared that we registered or drones, had FAA pilots, and follow the regulations as currently laid out. So, no 2nd person VO required.

We mainly fly urban sites, but we will operate with as many people as necessary to keep folks out of our flight area. If it takes 3 people for crowd control, in conducting a building facade inspection, so be it. Thus far, taking advantage of off hour slow times and traffic lights is really paying dividends.

We only have multirotors, no fixed wing, currently. Our current training requirment is based on observations from PICs. Stick time is pretty relative, as watching a drone fly pre-programmed routes for hours doesn't assist someone nearly as much as 20 minutes of manual control in a field. We've had no flyoffs yet.

Drones are the same as surveying, start off under supervision of those experienced, ask questions, listen, and allow the elders to gain trust in you.

There is something to be said about the first time someone is on the sticks. In about 30 seconds, you'll have a good idea of how much training someone will need. Reckless and Hesitant will both need much more guidance than someone that is consistently cool.

Lastly, it would be great if there were an app that could do everything correctly. We use 4 different ones depending on the application. Pix4d on iOS has had a know bug since July '16. DatuFly was great until they removed the ability to control speed.

~Raybies

Ariddle, post: 430740, member: 8350 wrote: Doing some research on how companies use UAV's safely in their practice. We currently have used them for about everything from surveying to inspection but i am curious how other companies are going about it. We are ready to start using UAV's in our daily survey routines and have many licensed commercial pilots. We have a quad-copter, fixed wing and a crew chief that is fully trained, licensed and insured. My early vision was that a crew chief could go out and perform the drone work one-man and complete all other site work after this. Our company is considering making all flights two-man so i am trying to get an industry feel for common practice and thoughts on level of risk. If you have any other input on how you perform this type of work go ahead and put it out there. I have some questions below.

• When using a UAV for surveying are you using a visual observer or doing it one man?
• If you are in a larger company are they requiring you to have a visual observer for insurance purposes?
• If doing it one man are you just surveying smaller areas to keep line of sight as required or larger areas as well? Break it up into multiple flights?
• Do you use a fixed wing or multi-rotor setup? If you use a fixed wing do you have a visual observer or is it case by case?
• Do you work in mostly rural or mostly urban areas?
• If you have a lot of experience with multi-rotor what are your thoughts on risk of wrecking into something that can cause an incident? Any fly-aways etc.?

I have a follow question to this post. What are you all using the drones for? What areas of the country?
I don't have a need for aerial topo and mapping in my work environment but an wondering what the general use is and the profit return is.
On larger tracts, say over 50 acres, I will have it flown via manned aircraft and drawn in accordance with my drafting standards.
I'm just wondering what you all are doing with it to make it worth the expense and profit return.

Lee D, post: 430783, member: 7971 wrote: I had a training flight just last week where I practiced aborting a landing at 60' - about as low as you'd want to try that - and as I said, things happen VERY quickly. I question whether in an unplanned emergency even a quick thinking operator could successfully pull that off. I knew I was going to do it and was prepared to do it, it would be a different story entirely if it was an emergency.

IMHO in the landing approach the VO should be watching the plane and calling out the status to the pilot, who should be focused on the controller.

Safety has to be paramount. You can never know when an emergency may occur and distract/incapacitate the pilot. The observer on the ground station will be relaying vital information to the pilot during the landing. In emergency the observer can hit the safety button on the screen and send the aircraft up to the safety point.while the problem is sorted out. With a fixed wing this is an essential safety tool.
During flight the observer can also be watching the tracking to identify any turns where drift might leave poor coverage. At the end of the programmed flight the pilot can then instruct the observer to mark the relevant waypoints so that those legs can be reflown. If the pilot is trying to do this as well then he is not giving his full attention to the safety of the flight.

Raybies, post: 430845, member: 9029 wrote: Lastly, it would be great if there were an app that could do everything correctly. We use 4 different ones depending on the application. Pix4d on iOS has had a know bug since July '16. DatuFly was great until they removed the ability to control speed.

Which ones do you currently use? We use Map Pilot, generally. I have tried out Altizure for 3D/Oblique. So far setting the camera to take a pic every 2 seconds and flying manually works pretty well for oblique. I feel a lot more comfortable getting close in manual, than in setting an auto flight, so the resolution improves with the manual flights.

dmyhill, post: 434270, member: 1137 wrote: Which ones do you currently use? We use Map Pilot, generally. I have tried out Altizure for 3D/Oblique. So far setting the camera to take a pic every 2 seconds and flying manually works pretty well for oblique. I feel a lot more comfortable getting close in manual, than in setting an auto flight, so the resolution improves with the manual flights.

We use DatuFly mainly. But some of the last updates hinder any sites over 5 acres. So, we'll use Pix4D Capture or DroneDeploy in a pinch on sites larger than that. We've also used MapsMadeEasy and MapPilot trying to find that perfect app. Nearly all of our drone work is site, intersection, and corridor mapping. As such, we haven't looked into any oblique specializing apps.

Chris Bouffard, post: 430905, member: 12313 wrote: I have a follow question to this post. What are you all using the drones for? What areas of the country?
I don't have a need for aerial topo and mapping in my work environment but an wondering what the general use is and the profit return is.
On larger tracts, say over 50 acres, I will have it flown via manned aircraft and drawn in accordance with my drafting standards.
I'm just wondering what you all are doing with it to make it worth the expense and profit return.

I can't answer all of these questions but i'll answer what i can. We have multiple drones. Phantom 4, Phantom 3's and what is called a fixed wing Futura with dual cameras. We work in MO, KS, NE, IA. As a company we are exploring many other uses for drones, not just surveying. I think this is what for us offsets the expense of learning and the purchases involved. We also are able to apply much of the time and expense to R&D on our taxes. At least that is what I hear.

Raybies, post: 430845, member: 9029 wrote: We recommend to our pilots to only operate solo if there is no chance of the flight area being compromised by the public.

I personally don't think it is terribly difficult to operate a flight that is a programmed, solo. If you're manually flying, it can be difficult depending on the situation.

The company insurance only cared that we registered or drones, had FAA pilots, and follow the regulations as currently laid out. So, no 2nd person VO required.

We mainly fly urban sites, but we will operate with as many people as necessary to keep folks out of our flight area. If it takes 3 people for crowd control, in conducting a building facade inspection, so be it. Thus far, taking advantage of off hour slow times and traffic lights is really paying dividends.

We only have multirotors, no fixed wing, currently. Our current training requirment is based on observations from PICs. Stick time is pretty relative, as watching a drone fly pre-programmed routes for hours doesn't assist someone nearly as much as 20 minutes of manual control in a field. We've had no flyoffs yet.

Drones are the same as surveying, start off under supervision of those experienced, ask questions, listen, and allow the elders to gain trust in you.

There is something to be said about the first time someone is on the sticks. In about 30 seconds, you'll have a good idea of how much training someone will need. Reckless and Hesitant will both need much more guidance than someone that is consistently cool.

Lastly, it would be great if there were an app that could do everything correctly. We use 4 different ones depending on the application. Pix4d on iOS has had a know bug since July '16. DatuFly was great until they removed the ability to control speed.

~Raybies

We are taking the same approach as you with two man vs. one man flight but a little more supervision and testing process before a person is signed off on insurance. We also take time to fly on our own recreationally to get more stick time.

dmyhill, post: 430823, member: 1137 wrote: When possible we use at least one visual observer. That is our standard operating procedure. The rules, as I read them do not require a VO.

Our insurance has no requirement for this.

Part 107 requires the RPIC to have VLOS at all times (except momentary loss of sight). So, one of the problems with larger sites will be compliance. You must break it up. At this point you cannot use multiple VO's to "extend" the vision of the RPIC without a Waiver or Authorization from the FAA (from what I know).

We use quads. But, the rules are the same for both.

Urban and Suburban

Some consider 30 hours of actual stick time as the threshold of "a lot of experience". I am slowly getting there...but at 15-20 minutes a pop, it is not easy. (Probably will take over 100 flights, and it rains a lot here.) But, I am VERY CONCERNED every time I fly. I think it is my responsibility to have that concern. But, the likelihood of running into something and all the rest is variable on how you use the aircraft, the type of aircraft, and other variables. 99.99% of what the FAA presents on a monthly basis is about risk assessment. It is the number one job, in my opinion, of a drone operator. My nine year old can pilot a drone, but she isn't qualified to assess risk. (Oh yeah, know how to fly that thing when GPS and autonomous goes wrong.)

We go through a whole site risk assessment and go over it by communicating it between the PIC and observer while onsite before the flight. There is a whole back and forth while flying to confirm the air is clear and the drone is hitting it's waypoints and not flying off.