Same difference in that WINE is for software written for Windows. Yes, technically WINE is not an "emulator", but it is still a compatibility layer running the Windows API and Windows Kernel on top of the Linux Kernel. WINE doesn't support as much Windows software on Linux as virtualization does, but I suppose it has its' advantages as well, such as not needing a Windows license or having your Windows apps look more like native apps in the Linux environment.
And, aside from a correction that the $29 price for OSX is for upgrade - what's the real moral difference if folks give money to Steve Jobs vs. Bill Gates, vs. mooching off of the open source community without ever contributing any development time or dollars back, as many do?
Read again. They do not sell OS X to anyone without a mac. Ergo, $29 (plus tax) is the cost of the OS. (It is an upgrade to any mac that you add it on.) The difference, and a big one at that is that you are getting charges 3X as much or more for Windoze. And there is no argument as to whether it is worth that.
Also, with wine the software loads a heck of a lot faster than running a dual boot or a VM.
And a lot of those "moochers" do contribute. The give bug reports and will ask questions about how stuff works. Not everyone is a computer programmer. On a deeper note, since when have you had a problem with moochers, Dave. Or is just those mooching off society that are encouraged?
They do sell OSX retail - and if you have an older mac and are a few versions behind, they also want to whack you for what is then essentially "full price" for your upgrade.
Since when have I had a problem with moochers? Since always. I believe in community - Community is based on participation, and if one can pitch in and help, then one should do so. I do believe there are some who truly, genuinely cannot pitch in, and we shouldn't turn our backs on those either, but for the rest of us who can, we should. That's what Jesus taught, anyways.
> They do sell OSX retail - and if you have an older mac and are a few versions behind, they also want to whack you for what is then essentially "full price" for your upgrade.
>
> Since when have I had a problem with moochers? Since always. I believe in community - Community is based on participation, and if one can pitch in and help, then one should do so. I do believe there are some who truly, genuinely cannot pitch in, and we shouldn't turn our backs on those either, but for the rest of us who can, we should. That's what Jesus taught, anyways.
Define older mac. I am running an "older" mac. If you have a mac that is not intel you cannot upgrade to current, it will not support the software. And my older mac, one of the first to allow 4 gb of ram, did not cost any extra to upgrade to snow leopard. And I bought snow leopard at an apple store. So you are wrong.
So, do you support cutting social programs? A simple yes or no, please? I say most who use linux do support the community the best way they can. They give feedback and will be willing to put up with programs that do not always work right, because they believe in the software. Do most users write for linux, probably not, but most users probably are not competent at writing code and would just screw it up.
Do I support cutting social programs? What do you mean, a simple "yes or no"? It's a complex issue, and it depends on the context. Cutting them outright? Generally not. And, any Christian should likewise not support outright cuts to social programs.
Should we be cutting fraud, waste and abuse in social programs? ABSOLUTELY.
I believe in means testing for medicare and social security, for example. I believe in far greater vigilance and accountability in welfare, section 8 housing and food assistance programs, and so on. I always have. I likewise believe that we should not be indiscriminately commingling the spending and revenues on social programs with other programs. Social Security for example could be made completely solvent by raising the contribution ceiling beyond the current $106k cap, by putting means testing in place and a few other very minor tweaks. Medicare could likewise be helped significantly through allowing negotiation on drug and other prices as the VA currently does, through eliminating a lot of the fraud, waste and abuse and so on. But citing Social Security costs as the basis for trying to eliminate totally unrelated government agencies does not fly with me.
But, we are going quite far afield here.
Yes, the full OSX is available for purchase retail without a Mac, and there are folks running retail OSX on non-Apple Intels, but Apple's business model is to steer you to a Mac.
clipped from the Pinguy forum:
As many of the older Linux users may know, I am a Registered Architect living and working in the US.
I have been using Linux and Open Source exclusively for a few years now. I refuse to use AutoCAD.
I am asked these types of questions all the time.
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AutoCAD is the only true Architectural Design program accepted by most professionals. The AIA (an American Architects Fraturnity) almost disbarred me for not using this Windows-based software.
While there are NO Linux-based drafting programs to rival the maturity of AutoCAD, some like Archimedes and SagCAD are gaining popularity 'Worldwide' over the AutoCAD drafting/CAD market. In the next couple of years, I can see these programs giving the Windows-based AutoCAD -- serious competition. QCad and SagCAD save their files in the same DXF format as AutoCAD so my saved files are compatible and viewable on most 'any computer.
Like many Windows-based programs, I never did get AutoCAD to work through Wine or VirtualBox.
AutoCAD is very glitchy and unstable, in that regard.
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Archimedes-for-Linux (CAD) is not so user-friendly a program/application as one might think. Although this is a good program, the learning curve is steep.
My recommendations for good user-friendly Architectural/Engineering programs are: QCad, SagCAD and Blender.
QCad is an excellent architectural/enginnering Linux-based program.
SagCAD is a great architectural program for Linux, most similar to AutoCAD.
Blender is a 3D modelling program (similar to Googles' Sketchup) . . . I use Blender for my 3D Perspective Architectural Renderings.
No need to search the web for any of these programs/applications, as they are all in the Mint/Ubuntu repositories.
Simply use the Synaptic Manager, select 'install' . . . Done.
If you want to read up, in the respective Wiki pages or each ... they each, also, have good Help-Forums.
And, yes ... I agree that the price for AutoCAD is outrageous.
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Unfortunately, I am usually busy, either with work or Linux and I do not frequent the Pinguy Forum - very often. If you need to get a hold of me > I am a Moderator at the LinuxMint Forums (main and spanish forum). Easiest to find me there. 😀
actually, if you read the software agreement, you may not install on a non mac. I am sure you do not support illegal actions.
From the Snow leopard EULA
"...You agree not to install, use or run the Apple Software on any non-Apple-branded computer, or to enable others to do so...."
From the Snow leopard EULA
Full OSX is sold retail, ostensibly for folks who want a clean install on their older Apple hardware, where an upgrade is not recommended, et cetera. I never specifically recommended anything about illegal installs or violating their license agreement. My only point was in disclosure of full OS cost vs. upgrade cost.
That's not to say that some folks out there don't still build Hackintosh machines or run VMs with OSX - though due to some quirks in Apple's implementation, it's a sub-optimal solution no matter how good the hardware due to the proprietary parts of OSX. Personally, I think that'd be bad practice on the part of Apple, but at this point they are heavily invested in selling overpriced hardware and have enough fans that they could care less.
I've had luck running star*net with a dongle on a vmware player instance of XP, that vmware running on an ubuntu box. that route might work for you.
From the Snow leopard EULA
It is not. Again, older macs will not run OS X 10.6. The PowerPC is incapable of running the software. Only intel chipset can run OS X 10.6. The older PowerPC can run OS X 10.5, however it is no longer sold by Apple. It is a little known fact (at least it is little known to those who do not own an apple) that the "upgrade" disk is in fact a full install disk. If your hard drive is empty, you would merely put the disk in and it would do a full install. If it is not, you would use utilities to clean hard drive and then install. They do market the OS X 10.6 as for Leopard and above however when I asked at the Apple store, they said that they did not enforce that and that they did not sell the full install without purchasing the box set which includes other software. However that was in fact the same DVD as the upgrade that is $29 dollars.
In fact, a lot of the "older" intel chipset will not be able to run Lion when it comes out this month. My Macbook is at the bottom edge.
From the Snow leopard EULA
I'm wasn't talking PowerPC, I was talking x86. They started supporting Intel platforms since 10.4, and for leapfrogging between major releases, like from 10.4 Tiger to 10.6 Snow Leopard, the Apple store has pointed their users to the box set as the "official" way you are supposed to do it, regardless of whether you want the other software or not.
From the Snow leopard EULA
If you are talking the first gen intel chipset, the macbooks will not support Snow Leopard, they cannot hold enough RAM. The imac desktops did have enough RAM, but you are incorrect about what the apple store recommends- at least as far as the local apple store- I bought my copy of snow leopard there and they told me as long as you had the specs required, they sold the upgrade, not the full install. Now a lot of intel chipset will not be supported at all with Lion. But that is a different story. Even if you want to still argue that you must have a full install dvd, they are in the price range of $45 unopened on ebay. Compare that to a full retail of Windows 7 home at $200. Advantage apple.
From the Snow leopard EULA
> If you are talking the first gen intel chipset, the macbooks will not support Snow Leopard, they cannot hold enough RAM. The imac desktops did have enough RAM, but you are incorrect about what the apple store recommends- at least as far as the local apple store- I bought my copy of snow leopard there and they told me as long as you had the specs required, they sold the upgrade, not the full install. Now a lot of intel chipset will not be supported at all with Lion. But that is a different story. Even if you want to still argue that you must have a full install dvd, they are in the price range of $45 unopened on ebay. Compare that to a full retail of Windows 7 home at $200. Advantage apple.
GEORGIASURVEYOR:
Do you know if some flavor of Linux will work on those older Mac machines?
I see them in swap meets here now and again "almost free" but never had a personal interest. That would be a real boon for the few here that can not afford the more modern hardware.
Peter
From the Snow leopard EULA
I do not know for sure, as I have not loaded on them, but since apple is an offshoot of linux, and so some probably will. I do know that OpenSuse and Fedora 13 say they will no longer support powerpc. That makes me think that others will probably drop it but currently do support it. The older intel chipset should definitely be able to load linux.
From the Snow leopard EULA
Oh, so now we are comparing Ebay prices for OSX to full retail prices for Windows 7. Apples and Oranges yet again.
There are folks on Ebay selling Windows 7 Ultimate for far less than $200 as well.
But I really could care less about the whole Apple vs Microsoft debate, it's pedantic, and getting old, in my humble opinion, and this discussion has been straying into all kinds of off-topic areas - my points are that a.) you can get (partial) support for Windows apps in Linux under WINE, b.) you can get far more robust support for Windows on Linux, or Linux on Windows, or either on Apple using a VM.
But since you apparently perceive any discussion involving Apple and Microsoft as a slight against Apple, I can give you this fodder as a parting shot: Notwithstanding their crappy policy on requiring Apple hardware, one (could) run Apple in a VM or other Intel hardware, but given their hardware support is so narrow, even in a flexible, forgiving and genericized environment like a VM, it is guaranteed to be a PIA to install and will run like complete crap, whereas Windows or Linux would run just fine.
From the Snow leopard EULA
You should be able to get Linux distros that support some of the older Apple hardware (within limits), there are some message boards and forums discussing installs of Linux on various old Macs. Might be older distros, though.
The one project I still have on my plate involves REALLY old Macs - getting stuff off of some really old Mac DD (GCR) formatted floppies for archival - back in the day, they used variable speed drives, incompatible with regular floppy drives.
Thanks. I'll look into it.
