Star*Net--Adding New Network to an Exsiting Control Network

yswami, post: 339330, member: 7679 wrote: How do I add several small traverse networks to an existing network in Star*Net--without messing up the existing adjustments. The existing network has 23 points that was already been adjusted.

I am concern by simply adding more point to this network it might mess up my already calculated coordinates which I've used for couple projects.

What your question boils down to is how you can add measurements to a network and run an adjustment wtihout any of the coordinates changing by more than some minimal amounts? The answer is that if the basic network was well surveyed, the largest changest in coordinates from a new adjustment with additional measurements should be quite minimal.

Just create a new input file with your new measurements (so that you can turn it on or off easily) and run the adjustment to see what the changes really amount to, to begin with. If the differences are small enough to be insignificant for your purposes, carry on.

If the changes are problematic and you want to integrate the new traverse into the old work without readjusting the basic control traverse (more as a matter of expedience than because it is a really good idea), then you always have the option of either running the adjustment without the new measurements, holding the adjusted coordinates of the control points you connected to in your new work fixed (add the fixed coordinate condition to your new input file or a separate new input file so that you can easily turn it off if you ever want to in the future, and adjuste the new traverse to those fixed coordinates.

Basically, you are using Star*Net in a less powerful mode, but you'll be able to adjust the secondary traverse in a way that will integrate the results into your existing control framework. Keep in mind that the chi-square test won't be a realistic indicator of measurement quality after arbitrarily fixing some coordinates of network points that actually have known uncertainty estimates.

Aloha, Kent:
Thank you! You summarized my question perfectly. Thank you for the options on how to go about doing this.

Star*Net is one of the best investment I made for my "in house" survey department. It makes the whole process so clear and clean! Thank you for your encouragement to look into this software.

Have a great evening!

This problem is a common one BTW, particularly as the same control network is used over an extended period of time and some of the fundamental values from which network coordinates are computed change with new datums or realizations of the datum.

For example, some projects that I began more than twenty years ago were computed in NAD27, then upgraded to an early realization of NAD83 and shifted to later realizations using current OPUS solutions.

The way that I find works well for dealing with that is to include all the topo and stakeout measurements in the network adjustment so that the coordinates of everything can be recomputed without breaking a sweat. Just keep the secondary measurements in separate input files with names that make sense (e.g. 2014_Topo01 or 2015_PierLayout) so that you can run a "clean" control network adjustment without the tons of secondary measurements that may or may not be as carefully made as those between network points.

Thanks for asking the question I would have asked a year ago had I known how to ask the question at all.:-D

Control networks established for construction projects need to be constantly refurbished as marks get destroyed. It's not at all uncommon to finish a project with none of the original marks surviving.

Pretty much the same situation exists in downtown Austin, where there is no such thing as a permanent mark. If you want to replace some previously existing mark designated as 1024 (for example), over time you can end up with 1024A, 1024B, and so on as successive replacements are set to mark nominally the same position.

Make a folder and put a copy of your existing project in here, everything, all the files. Then add data, modify your project, etc. This way you still have the old in case it blows up or whatever.

It's much simpler, though, just to create a separate input file for the new measurements. You can check and uncheck the new input file and rerun the adjustment. If you want to use different standard errors for the new input file, creating a project instrument is the way to go.

You just add the .INSTRUMENT SUPERDUPERX2 inline command to the new input file to use all the standard errors associated with the instrument you defined as "SUPPERDUPERX2" in the instrument library.

Kent McMillan, post: 339371, member: 3 wrote: It's much simpler, though, just to create a separate input file for the new measurements. You can check and uncheck the new input file and rerun the adjustment. If you want to use different standard errors for the new input file, creating a project instrument is the way to go.

You just add the .INSTRUMENT SUPERDUPERX2 inline command to the new input file to use all the standard errors associated with the instrument you defined as "SUPPERDUPERX2" in the instrument library.

And if you're too lazy (like me) to type out .INSTRUMENT, you can stop at just .INST and obtain the same effect.

Yes, although personally I prefer the long names of some of the inline commands that don't get used all that often because I think they make the input more intelligible.

For roughly that same reason, I'll add a comment line

# At Spike 213

before the observations made at Spike 213 just to make the input file read a bit more like a field book even though the adjustment runs exactly the same without the comment.

Yswami

You have already received some very good information. Perhaps I can add a bit more.

The ability to do a resection is a powerful thing. I do not know how I would do the staking I do without it.

The data file for Star*Net can get large. Have you seen the inline option: .INCLUDE ? Take a look at the book. The option lets you reference another outside file without changing your basic data. It may help to go through ALL the inline options, they seem more handy the more you use the software. Ron Sawyer gave us a very good product!

One of the things that is hard to wrap your head around is that even though your main loop gives excellent results, as you add cross ties and new measurements over time, the coordinates can creep. I just completed a project that spanned 12 years. I wound up with 328 baseline points, including temporary points that were set for the days staking. The input file spans 46 pages. Initially I was concerned about things moving, but after a while, the network seems to get tighter and tighter, with coordinates and elevations moving in the 3rd decimal place, or less. When you think about your field procedures, as good as your instrumentation is, and even if you follow the best field procedures, there will always be some, be it very small, error. Don't get hung up on small changes, but don't forget to check to ensure you have not introduced a blunder either. Over time, it should make more sense to you.

Hope that helps.

Ken

Aloha, [USER=398]@Ken Salzmann[/USER]:
Thank you for the additional inputs it is very much appreciated. I only know the very basics of Star*Net
I will look up the .include inline option. When you say the "book" you meant the online user help file right?

Thank you for reminding me not to get hung up on small changes 🙂 While being very, very amateur at this...I have a tendency to try to achieve high precision and accuracy as if I am doing a First Order survey!! :-$

Mahalo!

Aloha, [USER=3]@Kent McMillan[/USER]:
Thank you! I think for now I am okay as I am will be using the same instrument and prisms. I do need to study the inline commands...

Aloha, [USER=10]@Jim Frame[/USER]
Thanks!

Aloha, [USER=3]@Kent McMillan[/USER]
At this time I am not using any GPS so one less thing to be concerned about about.

I really like the idea of creating separate input files. I think ability turn them on and off is a great flexibility.

Kent I am wondering if you (or any other Star*Net users) could post a screenshot or two of Star*Net with where various inline commands were applied?

Thank you so much!

Aloha [USER=9981]@Norman Oklahoma[/USER]

I remember you mentioned about using LSA (Star*Net) for Topo shots a while ago in another post. How would you analyze it? Create a separate input file to compare it with the control network data? Or...

Thank you so much!

Nothing too special. Single sideshots get preceeded by "SS", instead of "M" or "DV". If a point (same point number) is shot a second time by "SS" shots, it get overwritten instead of being adjusted.

In practice you will have only one "SS" to each point. So there is nothing to adjust anyway. IF you have control shots in the data which are being adjusted, it does that first, then calculates your SSs from the adjusted control.

Error statistics on SSs are based on the input angular and distance precision estimates, plus the calculated precisions of the instrument point and backsight points.

This example has inline commands (including .data ON/OFF) and sideshots.

[pre]
# STAR*TDS Version 8.1.2.990
# Copyright 2014 MicroSurvey Software Inc.
# Input Field File : S:HOF (HOFFMAN CONST)HOF-03 (NIKE-MURRAY)HOF03-FIELD DATADC DWNLDS20150814 HOF-03 CG20150814 HOF-03 CLG.RAW
# Date Processed : 09-28-2015 09:12:27
.Units FeetInt
.Units DMS
.Order AtFromTo
.Sep -
.Delta Off
.3D

# Job : 20150814 HOF-03 CLG
# Date : 08-14-2015
# Time : 07:08:23
.data OFF
DV 500-408 440.9244 89-47-04.02 5.180/5.140 'CP MNW WHP CONTROL
SS 500-408-1000 359-59-58.38 440.9244 89-47-05.64 5.180/5.140 'CK 408
SS 500-408-1001 2-27-52.74 238.4585 89-59-34.09 5.180/5.000 'CK 410
M 500-408-100 359-51-22.41 408.7153 89-44-43.21 5.180/5.000 'CP BP
M 500-408-101 13-10-37.65 91.5826 89-39-18.27 5.180/5.000 'CP BP
M 500-408-101 13-10-38.46 91.5827 89-39-19.08 5.180/5.000 'CP BP
M 500-408-102 70-06-43.29 27.3667 89-08-51.16 5.180/5.000 'CP BP
M 500-408-102 70-06-44.10 27.3666 89-08-51.16 5.180/5.000 'CP BP
...
...
...
M 408-104-500 270-47-37.68 440.8991 90-07-19.77 5.220/6.000 'CK REP 500
M 408-104-105 112-47-48.39 120.7236 89-20-36.42 5.220/4.730 'CP BP
M 408-104-105 112-47-47.58 120.7231 89-20-38.04 5.220/4.730 'CP BP
SS 408-104-1009 359-59-53.52 411.7687 87-41-43.98 5.220/4.850 'CK 104
.data ON
DV 197-500 310.3654 90-03-16.02 5.060/6.500 'CP 5/8" RPC WHP CONTROL
#SS 197-500-1010 0-00-01.62 310.3669 90-03-16.02 5.060/6.500 'CK 500
M 197-500-106 347-09-47.88 366.1470 88-31-53.13 5.060/0.000 'CP CHECKER
M 197-500-106 347-09-47.88 366.1452 88-31-53.13 5.060/0.000 'CP CHECKER
M 197-500-107 343-37-06.33 392.8347 87-51-03.69 5.060/0.000 'CP CHECKER
M 197-500-107 343-37-07.14 392.8330 87-51-02.07 5.060/0.000 'CP CHECKER
M 197-500-107 343-37-05.52 392.8345 87-51-03.69 5.060/0.000 'CP CHECKER
M 197-500-107 343-37-05.52 392.8330 87-51-02.07 5.060/0.000 'CP CHECKER
#SS 197-500-1011 359-59-56.76 310.3654 90-03-17.64 5.060/6.500 'CK 500
#SS 197-500-1012 359-59-58.38 310.3680 90-03-17.64 5.060/6.500 'CK 500
DV 413-410 365.0051 90-34-44.94 4.700/5.200 'CP MNW WHP CONTROL
#SS 413-410-1013 359-59-58.38 365.0053 90-34-43.32 4.700/5.200 'CK 410
M 413-410-108 351-54-14.58 435.2816 87-59-01.59 4.700/0.000 'CP CHECKER
M 413-410-108 351-54-12.96 435.2802 87-59-02.40 4.700/0.000 'CP CHECKER
M 413-410-109 351-52-03.36 435.3020 87-59-51.00 4.700/0.000 'CP CHECKER
M 413-410-109 351-52-04.17 435.2985 87-59-48.57 4.700/0.000 'CP CHECKER
#SS 413-410-1014 0-00-00.00 365.0051 90-34-44.94 4.700/5.200 'CK 410
DV 415-100 358.8299 90-13-38.10 4.970/6.300 'CP MNW WHP CONTROL
DV 415-100 358.8309 90-13-39.72 4.970/6.300 'CP BP
#SS 415-100-1015 0-00-01.62 358.8299 90-13-39.72 4.970/6.300 'CK 100
#SS 415-100-1016 94-20-11.94 151.9904 90-17-47.58 4.970/4.550 'CK 413
M 415-100-110 16-58-11.01 378.5512 89-01-08.40 4.970/0.000 'CP CHECKER
M 415-100-110 16-58-11.01 378.5520 89-01-07.59 4.970/0.000 'CP CHECKER
M 415-100-111 359-51-47.52 365.5308 88-59-21.48 4.970/0.000 'CP CHECKER
M 415-100-111 359-51-45.90 365.5315 88-59-23.10 4.970/0.000 'CP CHECKER
M 415-100-111 359-51-49.14 365.5315 88-59-23.91 4.970/0.000 'CP CHECKER
#SS 415-100-1017 359-59-56.76 358.8300 90-13-39.72 4.970/6.300 'CK 100
[/pre]