Paul in PA, post: 409169, member: 236 wrote: Statistics is typically not high school material. One can get a basic 3 credit statistics course at any community college, but for surveying here are a few things that are only covered in 4 credit statistics courses for engineers. I have been in surveying classes that begin with a few weeks of catch you up statistics. I think a 1 credit add on Statistics course would be appropriate with the 3 credit intro course as a prerequisite at many surveying programs.
Paul in PA
2 of my daughters have taken AP stats in high school. It's a fairly popular class.
Asking for a friend in missouri. Lol. If you fail your state specific, are you allowed to see your test so you can see what parts your lacking in?
thebionicman, post: 409116, member: 8136 wrote: I took the NCEES exams about 15 years ago. I passed FS with an 87, PS with an 89 and State Specific with a 96 as I recall.
My education was limited to seminary and the Dr. Elgin course on boundary law in Missouri. I did obtain a GED at Austin Peay in Kentucky if that counts.
Education comes in many forms. If you really want to learn you will.
I agree with this 100%. It doesn't take 4 years from an institution to teach surveyors how to survey.
Paul in PA, post: 409093, member: 236 wrote: Fundamentals of Surveying Exam
First time Takers, 287, 46% passing = 132
Repeat Takers, 179, 25% passing = 45
Total FS passers = 177Principles of Surveying Exam
First time Takers, 303, 46% passing = 182
Repeat Takers, no data
Total PS passers = 182Once having passed the FS the PS passers are in range with the FS passers.
Fundamentals of Surveying Exam Failers
First time Takers, 287, 54% failing = 155
Repeat Takers, 179, 75% failing = 134Personally I believe, after three failures it should be necessary to re-apply with additional experience and additional education. I might consider the fee being somewhat lower, but the reapplication should occur.
I would have not problem if a reapplication required a board appearance, if not the full board then a special subcommittee of the surveying professionals, secretary and counsel.
Paul in PA
Some recent historical data indicates degreed candidates do perform better (especially surveying specific degree).
Oops, file too large. Lets try this...
We are the college dropout of professions.
Since we are headed back to the 19th century I don't really see the current student loan model of college finance as being sustainable.
Dave Karoly, post: 409272, member: 94 wrote: Since we are headed back to the 19th century
James Fleming, post: 409279, member: 136 wrote:
For better, for worse, for richer, for poorer that is where we are going. In the early 19th century a college education was for the wealthy, everyone else read books.
NCEES is like our Father disappointed that we never got an ABET Engineering degree. We may be uniquely positioned to embrace new, more efficient modes of education. The old dying institutions are usually the last to get the memo.
The once a year one day seminar format is not adequate by itself, though.
I took the FS in a couple years ago. The pass rates were much different. I know repeats were around 17% and I think first time was only like 38%
The test was actually very difficult. Not much math to be honest and most that was tested would have been book or classroom learned. I self taught for the exam so it wasn't easy.
The PS was a piece of cake. Much different than the FS and definitely more of what you learn by working and not the type of questions asked on the FS.
I recently took all the necessary tests (2015 & 2016). I took and passed the FS in the August 2015, which was a computer based test (CBT) and it was rather math heavy. I moved on to studying for the PS and SS, which are given the same day, if you elected to. I took both and I walked out thinking I bombed the PS but passed the SS. Totally opposite! I had passed the PS, which was heavier than anticipated with PLSS questions and failed the SS portion. I was so intent on studying the PS material that I lacked what was needed for the SS portion but I followed up with taking the SS again this past fall and passed.
I am thankful that I do not have to take the FS or PS tests again as they were rather hard. Now the VA SS test is a bear and after not passing the first time, I really knew how to approach it and was readied enough to pass on my second go-round.
Now that the "rules" have changed and you can take the FS without approval first, I think you will see the first time takers pass rate fall. This will be because of people wanting to take the test just to "see" how it will be and that the tests are being offered multiple times a quarter. Once you pass, you can then apply for your SIT designation. I believe the same will be for the PS too.
As for the education... I took the basic math in high school but never went to college for a degree. I fell into surveying and started taking a few classes related to surveying but not a formal degree path or curriculum. With my 15 years experience and limited education, I was allowed to take the tests.
"Principles of Surveying Exam
First time Takers, 303, 60% (not 45%) passing = 182
Repeat Takers, no data
Total PS passers = 182"
I just noticed a scrivening error.
Paul in PA
Spotteddotdog, post: 409349, member: 9158 wrote: ...Now that the "rules" have changed and you can take the FS without approval first, I think you will see the first time takers pass rate fall. This will be because of people wanting to take the test just to "see" how it will be and that the tests are being offered multiple times a quarter. Once you pass, you can then apply for your SIT designation. I believe the same will be for the PS too....
In the past a person without formal surveying education could apply to take the FS exam. NCEES is handling the FS as they have the FE(EIT) exam for eons (2+ years), which was offered to those at the threshold education level. So contrary to your statement I think the first time pass rate will rise because those with the education will not be restricted by having to wait for a board approval.
Paul in PA
Spotteddotdog, post: 409349, member: 9158 wrote: This will be because of people wanting to take the test just to "see" how it will be and that the tests are being offered multiple times a quarter.
I think this has something to do with the pass rates as well...I have a party chief who took the PS as soon as he was eligible to, even though he believed he wasn't really ready to pass, just to get an idea of what the exam was like.
When I was working in financial services my employer has a policy about the initial licensing tests...you had to take the Series 7 exam within eight weeks of when your training started and you had one shot to pass it or you got fired. That kind of incentive helps increase the pass rate
James Fleming, post: 409391, member: 136 wrote: ... you had one shot to pass it or you got fired. That kind of incentive helps increase the pass rate
[SARCASM]Employment based on performance. That model failed years ago.[/SARCASM]
Steve
I have no degree and have only taken 3 credit hours of survey related coursework. When I applied for the exams I had about 10 years in the industry working for an LS who was VERY encouraging to anyone interested in obtaining a license. I was toted around to every meeting he went to. I was called in to his office for every decision he made. His goal was to make a surveyor out of me. And I was ready to jump through any hoop to make that happen. Once I was accepted to take the exam, I spent roughly 3 months, at least 3-4 hours every day, 7 days a week, teaching myself as much of the real background of surveying as I could. We were a small but productive and popular firm, the president of which had nearly 50 years of licensure under his belt and had signed for most of the other surveyors in our area, or had at least some influence over those who signed the applications of many others. Many of the legal questions that were on the exams were situations that I had encountered or at least heard about during my career and I found the legal aspects pretty easy. Math was my weak point and that's what I focused my studies on. I took everything in one shot, two days, 8 hours each day, Friday and Saturday. 16 hours of testing in two days. Much of the material seemed redundant from one exam to the next so taking everything in one sitting felt like a benefit to me. I passed the FS and the PS on the first shot. I missed the NYS exam by a few questions. NYS lets you review your exam after you get the results. I did so, and passed on my next go round, 6 months later in the fall of 2011. I felt that all of the tests were difficult, having no formal education in the profession, but I still made a good showing. I thought the PS exam was the easiest of the three, having seen many business/legal issues in my training.
In my opinion, education is overpriced. There are two accredited programs available in NY (that I know of, but I could be wrong), Paul Smiths and Alfred. One year at PSC will run you somewhere in the neighborhood of $37k dollars (tuition, room/board, meal plan, books and supplies). So a four year degree, on your own dime, is approaching $150k. Then when you graduate you'll likely get a job as low man on a field crew for at least a couple years making about $15/hr (in my area).
I was lucky. I fell into the right spot under an excellent mentor who made it his goal to teach me everything he could. I wouldn't be where I am without that guidance and involvement. I also wouldn't be here without the fire that burned inside of me to succeed. You have to want it. Badly. You can't teach ambition or motivation. I feel like it would have been much easier to pass the exams had I gotten a degree, but I still did it.
So, again in my personal opinion, I would place more value on mentoring than I would on education. Your mileage may vary, but that's what got me through.
In NY, annually, they issue right around 30 licenses, give or take. In 2016 they were down to 19.
I was involved with grading the California State specific exam for several years, and worked on the development team that put together the last exam before computer based testing was implemented. The CA State specific has historically low passage rates (single digit in some years). However, based on my experiences, I believe a significant number of examinees were not actually qualified or ready to sit for the exam. That reflects a problem with other licensees who signed for them as references. Had the candidate pool only been composed of those who were ready and able, I believe the pass rate would have been much closer to 50%. Just my guess, but higher than what the record shows.
As to the National exam stats, I can offer no input. As of next Monday, January 23, I will have possessed my California license for 30 years and have never applied in another state. I do have an AA degree in general education and am NOT a proponent of the 4 year degree requirement.
