I understood your post Mr. Davidson.
There are plenty of other opportunities to fulfill your CE requirements.
I don't see how it benefits our profession in the eye of the public if we decide to put aside continuing education in place of additional enforcement to oust other professionals. Doesn't paint a good picture for the current state of the profession. Plus I would be entertained to hear more about how your extra dollars would create a police force. Would there be an officer sitting by each counties recording office just licking their chops to see the next plat that comes through?
> I understood your post Mr. Davidson.
>
> There are plenty of other opportunities to fulfill your CE requirements.
>
> I don't see how it benefits our profession in the eye of the public if we decide to put aside continuing education in place of additional enforcement to oust other professionals. Doesn't paint a good picture for the current state of the profession. Plus I would be entertained to hear more about how your extra dollars would create a police force. Would there be an officer sitting by each counties recording office just licking their chops to see the next plat that comes through?
Great point. I can see the Lawyer billboards now. "Did you just get a survey, if so can me I will have the State Survey Task Board review it. Your family, and boundary could be great harm"
That sounds awesome! One day seminars are typically a waste but a 3 day mini-vacation with real surveying experience appeals to me.
Read what Arizona does.
VH Stated "...Who on this board can honestly say that they are 100% confident in ALL of their abilities..."
Many states have laws that state that you should only accept work within your field of expertise. i.e., if you're not an expert DON'T TAKE IT.
> Here in MA.... Well we do have a Professional Development Committee that host regular seminars several times a year. We do send out a questionnaire after each seminar and one of the questions is "What subjects would you like to see covered?"
>
In Ky, we do something similar. At the end of the seminar, we have a questionnaire about the seminar content, presenter, facilities, and what subjects would you like to see in the future.
I have proctored seminars and collected the forms. It is VERY rare to see any suggestion of what the attendants would like to see in the future. Later, you are sure to hear the same people complaining that there is never anything new offered.
KAPS hosts fall seminars and a conference. You are not required to get your CE courses through KAPS. However, I can tell you from being involved that the effort that goes into arranging the courses and facilities does not equate to big bucks for the state society. They make a little bit off of the fall seminars. Much of that goes back to the individual chapters. The chapters then use those funds to do things such as local scholarships or sponsor student events for the surveying programs in the area.
> I'd like to see some courses on GNSS, least squares, and map projections, to name a few. If you're frustrated with the "same old" courses that are being offered, maybe write the BOR.
>
> -V
Good point. But beyond writing in, even volunteer to be on the professional development or conference committee in order to help line up speakers and topics.
As an aside, if you want to arrange an excellent presenter on GNSS and map projections, I would highly recommend Todd Horton, PE, PLS from Parkland College in Illinois. Very good presenter!
Continuing Education Was Created To Educate The Uneducated
Paul,
Not sure if your post is tongue in cheek... but for the graduate who are extremely short on for example, Boundary experience then there is a wealth of information to be gained from CE. I would also suggest from my experience that the technology boom has expanded and introduced areas of surveying since my graduation 40 years ago!
For example we knew everything possible about astro fixes for lat, long and azimuth (which to this day have never used) and GPS technology was then not even a twinkle in the eye of those who invented it!
Guess over the years I have had a lot of continuing education to keep up with speed in the area of my expertise. My beef is that you get little credit for using your own initiative as the powers believe that unless you attend an organised function then you could be cheating, something in surveying I personally find abhorrent.
RADU
Kentucky, where I am not registered, requires standards like many other states.
I asked a surveyor who was registered in several states, what the difference
was state to state. He replied, "Minor, but I have never changed plumb bobs when
surveying across a state line."
He commented about standards. Standards in different states are like zoning laws
except they change state to state, not city to city. I have read hundreds of zoning
laws from hundreds of cities, why would state to state standards or administrative
rules require special expertise?
Continuing Education: What is the Intent?
I know of three TN surveyors who have come to Texas for the oil boom.
They say that Tennessee is in it for the money, especially their
association.
You keep on with the point that the classes should not be mandatory. If they are not required by a board, then a board can not take action against a licensee that fails to do so and whose work becomes a risk to the public.
It is great that you look for ways to improve your knowledge of surveying on a regular basis. Most of us do. But board CEU requirements are meant to force those for whom the education does the most good to do the same thing that any conscience professional does.
John Putnam, PLS
OR, CA, WA, ID
"How can you legislate Professionalism?"
:good:
As I have been reading this thread that question came to mind several times. The professionals that will act professionally will do so no matter what a boards rules say. The ones that won't will find a away around any rule.
But since I started typing anyway, I might as well throw in my two cents. I don't have a problem with continued education being required. By that I mean "12 credits every two years" for example. I do not believe a board should mandate what classes those credits are. Sure, the credits need to be approved as related to the field of surveying, but how does a board know what kind of surveying I performing? Boundary guys like me would certainly better benefit from different classes than a hydrography guy. As long as surveyors can choose their credits from a long list I think continued education is a good thing. We all have to do it (required or not) in some way just to keep up with technology.
When GPS first came out, there were few people giving much needed gps seminars.
The seminar speakers could press the buttons and post-process using the software.
When nuts and bolts questions were asked during the seminar, the speaker sometimes
gave the wrong answer.
In NY, the association duped the BOR into thinking the approval of courses was a big job.
It is. So the NY association offered to approve the courses. You could image whose
courses (association or third-party) got approved. Do the NY surveyors not see this
as a conflict of interest?
> VH Stated "...Who on this board can honestly say that they are 100% confident in ALL of their abilities..."
>
> Many states have laws that state that you should only accept work within your field of expertise. i.e., if you're not an expert DON'T TAKE IT.
Virginia is one of the states whose law says this. I have always wondered though, how do become an expert if you don't take it? No one can be an expert on something without experience doing it.
That said, I'm not an expert on many types of surveying so I stick to what I know. There are several forms of the profession that I want to know nothing about.
In Texas, a former member of the BOR, made his own study about continuing education.
The purpose of the study was to ask some questions.
Does more CEU's make a better surveyor?
He researched all of the complaints from all BOR's. He found there were no
correlation between seminars and the expertise of the land surveyor.
A surveyor friend of mine, took a course on water boundaries from Darrell Shine, who has now
passed on to survey with the saints. Reading his writings, one can see he is an excellent surveyor.
I have heard all kinds of surveying war stories from Knud, Robilliard, and other surveying experts.
Darrell, who I heard at an association meeting in Texas, has the best war stories and funniest jokes.
Texas is missing Darrell, a writer, mayor, even GIS type guy, and surveyor.
Continuing Education: What is the Intent?
>I used to be in favor of mandatory continuing education, however, the State of Florida has cured me of that. If were aren't to be trusted with selecting our own courses to further our education, then we certainly don't need to be trusted to stake out property lines.
Therein lies the problem, to say that there are mundane (Mundane would be putting it lightly, lame is probably a better choice of words) courses out there and we as students should make the most of it, is kinda a stretch. If I as a Professional, can't be entrusted to determine what I need polish up on or explore in order to better serve my clients or the public at large; why license you in the first place. Moreover if it is to ensure competence, then it should grow teeth (Like an independent proctored exam at the end)
Continuing Education Was Created To Educate The Uneducated
I find it necessary to spend extra time avoiding the drivel and take what is of interest. However what one learns in no way corresponds to what one pays.
My preference would be for some emphasis be put on actual college credit education.
I think college education sticks with you longer than a seminar, but if you took a 3 credit course, you typically can carry very little of the credit into the next cycle(typically only half of the next required cycle). Formal education especially with exams should be given a longer carry forward.
In that light a different solution would be for some college courses to be broken up into 1 credit parts. These need not be the standard courses, but surveying history, surveying instrument history, advanced statistics and certain survey/land law topics come to mind.
Certain seminars (I estimate 1/3) also fill up quicker than the drivel. There are only so many David Doyles to go around.
The drivel classes cater to the truly non-educated who plan to show up, snooze and take their attendance certificate home and sleep through the same class 2 years hence.
Paul in PA
Continuing Education: What is the Intent?
three.rivers,
I can honestly say that you have been totally mislead about the Tennessee Association, and the Tennessee Board of Examiners.
I was in charge of the continuing education classes at the spring conference several years ago. It is not an easy job to pull together all of the speakers, topics, etc., in order to put on a successful continuing education experience. The goal of the Association is to put on quality continuing education seminars at the spring conference.
I recently attended a public rulemaking hearing on continuing education with the Tennessee Board of Examiners. In my opinion, it is the goal of the Board of Examiners is to elevate the surveying profession by requiring quality continuing education.
You don't have to attend the Associations conference to get your continuing education, and the Board of Examiners allows many different options for obtaining your continuing education.
I am friends with several surveyors that are or have been on the committee that reviews the "continuing education" classes that are submitted to the Board of Examiners for approval as continuing education. You would be amazed at the types of classes that are submitted. Many are not even related to the surveying profession.
This is a topic that will always stir debate. There will always be individuals that will complain about being "required" to attend the classes/seminars. I personally enjoy the conferences, and I always take away information that helps me in my daily workflow.
Continuing Education: What is the Intent?
There are bad and good seminars and bad and good distance learning courses.
Thanks for helping your board and association raise their standards for continuing education.
Texas is enough work for me.
