Well, the academic people in charge of my community college have done it again. The brain factory run by the academic administration, who are specifically NOT career technical people, decided to close the drafting and design technology program at our local community college where I am one of two (until the end of the spring 2012 semester) of the technical instructors for that program. I worked hard to get a surveying option set up for our program that created an course curricula for a student to meet the scholastic requirement route to become a PLS. I submitted the surveying option curricula to our state board of licensure and gained their approval of our two-year program. Our college's reasons for closing our program (including the surveying option) was "not enough interest in the program" and "low number of students" (we had about 50 people in our program) and "it costs too much money to continue funding" and other such nonsense. Our crafts/advisory committee members (PE's, PLS's, architects, manufacturing and industrial managers along with area industry people where we place our students) were astounded and shocked. Our administration will not budge, so we are history. "Career Technical programs have outlived their usefulness" and "we want to concentrate on pre-BS or BA degrees" are other things we have heard. Also, "drafting is a skillset used by other majors, and not a stand-alone program anymore". I came from the industry, and all of this is a buncha BS - our students may start in drafting, but many have gone on to become construction managers and superintendents, architects, land surveyors, corporate management, professional engineers, self-employed draftsmen, and working in engineering/architectural/manufacturing/industry drafting departments. They earn 30K-40K or more per year and love their jobs. Their employers call us back wanting more of our graduates and are impressed with what they know and their ability to adapt to the work environment and ability to quickly learn a new task and be a productive worker. Mission accomplished for us educators with an almost 100% student placement. But, our administration is a different story. They can't see what we are doing - they are looking primarily at the bottom line: the almighty DOLLAR. In education, we are supposed to serve the industry and educate the people. Our administration has lost that vision.
I have also noted a lessened preparedness coming from the new student population. Math baffles them - I have had potential students turn around and walk out of my office when they hear the words "trigonometry" and "algebra". Administration "dumbed" down our program by removing trig and statics/strength of materials from our general drafting option, and algebra became an option: they could take either take algebra or a physical science course with a lab. We have had students end up taking five math classes and three english classes, and some two reading classes just to get up to college speed. A lot of those students either can't read very well, or won't read at all. We have introduced a reading accupalcer score that helps a lot of students with poor reading skills. Students coming into our curricula are less prepared for college than those in the years before. The education industry is changing - most of my students would rather operate their iphones or play on Facebook than listen to me explain coordinate geometry in my elementary surveying class or explain the Cartesian coordinate system in one of my CAD classes. A lot of our college students are full-time while taking an entire course load on-line while living in a college dorm!
I am ending my career as an educator for 18 years this coming spring and I am going back to private practice as a land surveyor and civil engineer. And, I do my own drafting work. I am a dinosaur, 55 years old, and a few years away from drawing state retirement, so I will have to produce my own income from now on. I have been reading the "going solo" posts on this website with great interest. Thank all of you for your insight and wisdom in your posts that others like me can glean from.
I can and will make it. I will survive.
I'm sorry to hear about your program being shuttered, seems to be a common one to die though. I can echo the math concerns though, I had a chief that didn't understand the math of resectioning, and speaking for myself trig is a hoot.
You will likely be better off in private practice actually.
I can relate to your students fears of mathematics.
I have tried to tutor several college students in recent years.
Some of it super simple algebra I learned in 7th grade.
[believe it or not] Some of it in English writing.
The English writing thing is kind of a joke on me because I was never good at it.
Best of luck to you Harold.
E.
If the surveying starts out slow, there is money to be made doing part time/consulting/free lance drafting/design work. There is also a lot of demand for training and consulting and even organizing continuing education classes.
Craigslist under jobs architecture/engineering is a good place to find such work.
I came from a two year Civil Engineering Technology program much like the one you have been teaching. It was shut down a few years after I graduated. I feel your pain.
I chose that school because I could afford it. When I graduated, I had a 74 Malibu with over 100k miles, a 17 foot travel trailer that I lived in, and 300 dollars in the bank, but no student loans.
James
Sorry to hear that. I guess it's a sign of the times.
I'm also of the opinion that you will be better off in business for yourself.
There are a lot of technical jobs out there that are going unfilled because of a shortage of trained people. Three years ago we couldn't find anyone with the training to fill entry level field positions. This crash has changed that but in a healthy economy there would be a shortage.
The gap is becoming wider. Too many people out there with 4 year non-tech dgrees out of work and the tech industries go begging. To many schools looking to hook students into a 4 or 5 year track for the bigger paycheck.
Where do we go from here?
Jim
I'm sorry to hear that, unfortunately, it seems to be a trend.
> Our college's reasons for closing our program (including the surveying option) was "not enough interest in the program" and "low number of students" (we had about 50 people in our program) and "it costs too much money to continue funding" and other such nonsense.
Well unfortunately it isn't nonsense to the school - schools are floundering w/ less & less state funds available; underperforming programs get axed. Purdue University cut their 4-yr surveying program a few years ago.
The schools can make more money on liberal arts degrees. It's easier to get the students their loans. Apparently the schools don't care that these graduates can't get jobs with their degrees.
Seems a lot of kids need to go hungry before they can figure out that they need to learn something in school. The sad part is many don't ever recover.
I hope things work out for you. Don't discount that there are surveying programs that can't find qualified instructors. That would require a relocation though and later in life that is tough. You are 5 years younger than me and say you are a dinosaur. What does that make me? My bet is maybe the best part is yet to come. Think about how dumb you might have been 35 years ago. You can't compete with the young for some jobs but they can't qualify for what you can do.
Harold, the administration of your school may want to rethink that position given our incomming Governor's stance on just such education progams. He was very supportive of just such programs during the campaign and stated that just such vo-tech programs at the college level was his solutuion to many of our current woes in the field of education. Perhaps a phone call to him advising him of the atrtitde that is prevelent at your school? It's rather short sighted considering the future requirements that the state board is pushing.
Hinds Community College has a very succesful program as you outline. They also have one of the few aviation branches in our part of the country. They are taking the lead in this type of training and the other Community colleges would do well to follow their lead.
Yeh, Those Going On For A BS, Will Do Well Without Math
Stupid is as stupid does. Fire the administration. 50 students not enough?
Paul in PA
"Career Technical programs have outlived their usefulness"
That has to be one of the stupidest statements ever uttered with regard to education.
Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs) gave a speech to Congress in which he stated that no one knows how to do anything anymore. His granddaddy could do carpentry, plumbing, electrical work and other such things. He says he can't do any of those things well. He says that we have demeaned the trades. We have to have plumbers, electricians, etc... Not everyone needs a BS degree.
Now, before anyone jumps on me for calling surveying a trade, I'm not. However, we definitely employ people could be called tradesmen. Everyone that works for a surveying firm does not need a surveying license.
Sorry to hear of them ending the program. Assuming you are at NEMCC, you may have had a few cousins of mine from Savannah among your students over the years.
> Sorry to hear that. I guess it's a sign of the times.
>
> I'm also of the opinion that you will be better off in business for yourself.
>
> There are a lot of technical jobs out there that are going unfilled because of a shortage of trained people. Three years ago we couldn't find anyone with the training to fill entry level field positions. This crash has changed that but in a healthy economy there would be a shortage.
>
> The gap is becoming wider. Too many people out there with 4 year non-tech dgrees out of work and the tech industries go begging. To many schools looking to hook students into a 4 or 5 year track for the bigger paycheck.
>
> Where do we go from here?
>
> Jim
On the job training, Jim. Like it was done in the old days.
> "Career Technical programs have outlived their usefulness"
>
> That has to be one of the stupidest statements ever uttered with regard to education.
>
> Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs) gave a speech to Congress in which he stated that no one knows how to do anything anymore. His granddaddy could do carpentry, plumbing, electrical work and other such things. He says he can't do any of those things well. He says that we have demeaned the trades. We have to have plumbers, electricians, etc... Not everyone needs a BS degree.
>
> Now, before anyone jumps on me for calling surveying a trade, I'm not. However, we definitely employ people could be called tradesmen. Everyone that works for a surveying firm does not need a surveying license.
>
> Sorry to hear of them ending the program. Assuming you are at NEMCC, you may have had a few cousins of mine from Savannah among your students over the years.
Correct, everyone who works for a surveying firm doesn't have to be licensed but you have to pay 'em.
Thanks for all the posts, guys. I unloaded a little, primarily out of frustration. Thanks for hearing me out. I appreciate all the words of wisdom, encouragement, and enlightenment.
I would like to let our governor-elect know about this - I remember what he said during his campaign about promoting more technical education. However, the damage has been great to our program. Maybe I can help save some of the other technical programs, even those at other state community colleges.
Our program is not the case of an underperforming program - we place almost 100% of our students with demand for more. Our real problem is getting students interested enough in our program to come and major in it. We talked to over 300 area high school students who were in tour groups during the fall and spring semesters. We put on a Career Expo that brought in over a thousand students. Dull, boring old drafting. Nothing sexy or exciting about that. I heard "what's drafting?" many times. A lot of kids wanted to do graphics for computer gaming.
Marketing Career Technical programs is a big issue - not many of the counselors want to push technical programs, mainly because a room full of academic students taking english, humanities, or fine arts classes (who are lined up at the door to take the class) is worth a lot more money to the college than a less crowded room in one of my classes.
I am going to make it. I will survive. I already have my own company (sub-S corporation) and all of my basic surveying equipment bought and paid for over the years. I had plans to go full-time surveying when I retired from teaching in about four years. I would have had a monthly retirement income to supplement my work income during the start-up time. But that used to be the plan. Now, I think that the incentive of knowing I absolutely have to make it will work better for me. There is a concern when I look at steady monthly bills (outgo of money) and compare them to a variable income. However, my client list has hardly ever been empty, and I have managed to stay busy part-time for many years. I think that I will do well when I go full-time.
Thanks again, guys.
Harold Dendy, PE, PS
On The Job Training Is Out !
1/ There is much to much to teach.
2/ The principal has much less time available for the field.
3/ Today's equipment is much too expensive to sit idle while you instruct.
4/ Today's solo equipment precludes a trainer or puts the trainer as a very high cost.
Paul in PA
Harold, What Is Your Own Education ?
Besides your own survey business, today there is a much greater requirement for Continuing Education Programs, some travel required.
What I would like to see is some certified surveying program or a cooperative of surveying programs put together a series of 1 college credit courses, real credits. One college credit is more than enough to satisfy any annual PDH requirement The problem with a 3 credit courses is that it translates to so many PDHes that you cannot carry them forward. The object is to have basic enough subjects that non licensees can make it part of their training while it presents an opportunity for licensed individuals to expand their knowledge. For many of the subjects the licensed individuals could actually mentor the newbies. Think on Abraham Lincoln riding the Illinois Circuit Court.
Classes to be on a few Saturdays and a few evenings. Business Schools have got the concept pretty well covered in the new MBA programs. This is a bring your own laptop program.
For some bookish subjects a Saturday intro/class/lab, 4 or 5 evening's online live (canned makeup) and a Saturday, lab/presentation/review/final (2-4 week spread, for example S/Tu/Th/Tu/Th/S).
For Field techniques Saturday intro/class/lab, 1 or 2 evening's online live (canned makeup), Saturday intro/class/lab, 1 or 2 evening's online live (canned makeup), Saturday, lab/presentation/review/final (4-6 week spread, for example S/W/W/S/W/W/S).
I would much rather have real college credits than a stack of PDH certificates.
Paul in PA
Harold, What Is Your Own Education ?
BS-Civil Engineering, Mississippi State University.
These are excellent ideas. We were beginning to explore Workforce Development type of classes like these when I was informed that my program was being cut and that my contract would not be renewed. There did not seem to be enough interest by Workforce Development in putting together something like this. They don't see a large number of people in our area that would be interested in surveying or drafting classes. The new Toyota plant at Blue Springs in Northeast Mississippi has been taking top priority lately. This area is going to grow by leaps and bounds, and our program graduates have been placed in just about all areas of the construction industry.
I like the college credit part, too. I agree that it would be worth more to a student or a surveying intern than a PHD or CEU. I sincerely hope that these ideas will be considered by workforce development and colleges to help train tomorrow's technical people.
Thanks again, everyone.
.
Harold, Have You Considered More Education ?
I am of the opinion that an MS in Planning and a JD would be good qualifications for a Surveying Professor. Rutgers in New Jersey has a joint MS/Planning Juris Doctorate program I would love to take.
There are now MS Engineering degrees in engineering management and data management, that combined with a JD would also work. An MA/MS in GIS is also appropriate.
I don't see the need for an MS and PhD in surveying because the course material for those two degrees are far removed from professional land surveing, while my alternates are in fact more relavent.
Paul in PA
A few years ago I was in a hotel room and came across a public access cable channel tutoring algebra. They were tutoring super simple stuff like 2b=4; very slow. I watched it for a while. I'm no algebra genius but I never had trouble with that kind of thing.
