John B. Stahl tackles Joplin, MO--good report

John B. Stahl tackles Joplin, MO--arms waved

> He covers an area about 15 feet by 20 feet while speaking with both arms moving at all times for emphasis.

In Texas, that is called "arm waving".

I've never seen John get tired during a good survey law discussion, never!

I really wished I could have made it. My schedule just didn't work out where I could attend.

John B. Stahl tackles Joplin, MO-- questionable report

> I really wished I could have made it.

I wouldn't think that would be any problem if you just post the sort of stuff that you'd have liked to have heard the seminar presenter present. Others will almost certainly be able to tell you what you "missed".

Did you have any good questions for John or were you just working on your cud?

Great chat during lunch

Had a real nice chat with John during the lunch and exchanged a few comments at other times. Told him he had a real treat by coming to Missouri only to end up having lunch with four guys from Kansas.

It was great to attend a program where the speaker keeps the crowd engaged instead of playing pac-man on their phones under the tables.

John predicts that licensed land surveyors will become more involved in the legal aspects of the profession over time as the mundane measurement science becomes simpler or passed over to other sources much like what is happening in control systems already.

One of the "gotchas"

John was describing serving as a mediator to resolve a boundary issue with two cordial but stubborn adjoiners. He described being near one end of the line in dispute with both adjoiners. Take the bar that needs to be set and announce you are about to set it where it needs to go. Approach a possible solution point and watch their faces. As you move to the left, one will smile and one will scowl. Then move to the right, eventually the other will scowl and the first will smile. Waggle back and forth until you find the point where both scowl at you. Drive the bar. (This was enhanced by his walking back and forth pretending to hold a bar and hammer.) The goal being to make them equally unhappy.

Mundane Measurement Science

> John predicts that licensed land surveyors will become more involved in the legal aspects of the profession over time as the mundane measurement science becomes simpler or passed over to other sources....

As someone who's in both the land surveying and mundane measurement science business, I think that is 180 degrees from what is happening.

Sure, collecting a lot of data is cheap and there is no money in the data collection business. However, the huge amounts of data being collected and the increasing need to interrelate data from different sources into one system and manage/maintain/update that data is a huge source of revenue.

Also the ability to gather large amounts of measurement data affordably creates the opening of new markets. If I was advising a recent surveying degree graduate about how to make decent money, I'd tell them to specialize in monitoring and 3D modeling. I rarely put a proposal for $25,000+ "land surveying" projects, but I do churn out big "mundane measurement science" proposals weekly (My largest fee on a "land surveying" project in the last year was around $125,000, my largest "measurement" contract in the same time frame was $1,800,000)

Mundane Measurement Science

Very encouraging.

Need any help in the Mid West region?

My choice of words, not his

I forget exactly how he worded it, but that's what it amounted to in the end.

Mundane Measurement Science

:good: :good:

Spot on James

Mundane Measurement Science

WEll sure there's more money in the "mundane measurement sciences". But surveyors are allergic to money, unless ensconced in multidiscipline firms in large metropolitan areas;-) . So I think John may be correct in that much of that type work will go to others. Much of it already has due to the financial outlay required to stay on the cutting edge of it. I think it's good advice to students to get into a program that teaches the latest technology in measurement science. I'm not sure these will necessarily be surveying programs. I don't see a license being associated with "mundane measurement science". Rather I see folks knowledgeable in other fields or specialties (including surveying, but not limited to it) all utilizing the technology. Engineers may have the political clout to capture some of this stuff under a need for their stamp, but I doubt surveyors have much chance of it.

Could be wrong though. Is anyone putting required surveyor stamps on 3d modeling, scans, etc..?

Promoted property owners with a clothe tape setting their own property lines.:-S By the way I never got to ask him a question even though I tried. If a fence line has
been used by both adjacent property owners for a period of time that would establish it as the boundary line. Yet it does not hit the title line. On a ALTA survey is it shown as the Property line or encroachment? Also in the state that I practice in, it is illegal for adjacent owners to measure their own boundaries. Impersonating a Professional Land Surveyor. I witness a Judge fining a individual for such practices.

IMWTK

> Promoted property owners with a clothe tape setting their own property lines.:-S By the way I never got to ask him a question even though I tried. If a fence line has
> been used by both adjacent property owners for a period of time that would establish it as the boundary line. Yet it does not hit the title line. On a ALTA survey is it shown as the Property line or encroachment? Also in the state that I practice in, it is illegal for adjacent owners to measure their own boundaries. Impersonating a Professional Land Surveyor. I witness a Judge fining a individual for such practices.

The other day, our fellow poster Steve Gilbert did a small vent about posts that have no geographic signature to their content and how it is a worthless to the readers.

Your post falls into this pitfall of the unknown location.
I am curious bot the state that says that you can not survey your own land and also the judge who "fined" the property owners for "impersonating a surveyor".

Mundane Measurement Science

> ... But surveyors are allergic to money, ...

hahaha :good:

Thanks for the comments, Holy. I had a great time in Joplin. Definitely had some good discussions. That particular presentation really does make a surveyor begin to "think outside the box." That's also why I spend the time discussing direct quotations instead of paraphrasing the information. Some of it's quite contrary to the way I was taught to survey.

JBS

Sorry to have missed your question, Volman. It would have been a good one.

In response to your comment about "promoting" property owners to perform their own surveys... I simply stated there was no law that prevents them from doing it and the courts actually encourage the resolution of boundary disputes by the owners using whatever means are available before they choose to litigate and make the judge settle the matter. I certainly wouldn't "promote" the practice.

I'd be curious what state you are practicing in and what law makes it "illegal for adjacent owners to measure their own boundaries." I can hardly see the connection with "impersonating a PLS." As long as they're not printing business cards or holding themselves out to determine boundaries for others, I haven't seen any civil court that would prevent them from settling the uncertainty or dispute between themselves. I'd sure like to see the reference. I'd also like to see what charges were filed against the person and what statute gave the judge the ability to impose a fine.

Regarding your comment about ALTA surveys... I'd have probably just pointed to the ALTA/ACAM requirements that say:

>3.D. Boundary Resolution - The boundary lines and corners of any property being surveyed as part of an ALTA/ACSM Land Title Survey shall be established and/or retraced in accordance with appropriate boundary law principles governed by the set of facts and evidence found in the course of performing the research and survey.

If, through the gathering of the evidence, determining the facts, and applying the appropriate boundary law principle, you determine that the fence is indeed the boundary, then you'd be best to depict the fence as the boundary and reflect the record and measured dimensions of the boundaries. In my opinion, there is no such thing as a "title line."

Of course, I'd further recommend that steps be taken to adequately document the evidence you discovered during the course of the survey. You mention the actions of the landowners relied upon to determine that the boundary principle was fulfilled, thereby establishing the boundary location. I'd recommend affidavits of the landowners be recorded to document their mutual recognition and treatment of the fence as the boundary.

Too often, with ALTA's in particular, the time constraints make it difficult to provide the appropriate documentation. Keep in mind that the whole point of the ALTA survey is to inform the insurer of any survey exceptions they would exempt from their standard policy. Your duty, as always, is to survey the boundary and to document the evidence used to make the determination.

JBS

Mundane Measurement Science

Just to clarify, Jim, I didn't use the words "mundane measurement science" although it does kind of roll off the tongue with a bit of flair. There are many areas of expertise that are wide open to surveyors because of their particular areas of knowledge and experience. There are many extremely legitimate and often very lucrative ventures. There's a ton of work available in various measurement fields. Technology is nothing until you place it in the hands of an expert.

This particular seminar topic had nothing to do with one's ability to measure. It was a boundary law seminar. Determining boundaries is a legal process, not a technical process.

JBS

IMWTK

Illinois

If you want the statute here it is.

(225 ILCS 330/5) (from Ch. 111, par. 3255)

Section scheduled to be repealed on January 1, 2020)
Sec. 5. Practice of land surveying defined. Any person who practices in Illinois as a professional land surveyor who renders, offers to render, or holds himself or herself out as able to render, or perform any service, the adequate performance of which involves the special knowledge of the art and application of the principles of the accurate and precise measurement of length, angle, elevation or volume, mathematics, the related physical and applied sciences, and the relevant requirements of law, all of which are acquired by education, training, experience, and examination.

Any one or combination of the following practices constitutes the practice of land surveying:
(a) Establishing or reestablishing, locating,

defining, and making or monumenting land boundaries or title or real property lines and the platting of lands and subdivisions;

(b) Establishing the area or volume of any portion of

the earth's surface, subsurface, or airspace with respect to boundary lines, determining the configuration or contours of any portion of the earth's surface, subsurface, or airspace or the location of fixed objects thereon, except as performed by photogrammetric methods or except when the level of accuracy required is less than the level of accuracy required by the National Society of Professional Surveyors Model Standards and Practice;

(c) Preparing descriptions for the determination of

title or real property rights to any portion or volume of the earth's surface, subsurface, or airspace involving the lengths and direction of boundary lines, areas, parts of platted parcels or the contours of the earth's surface, subsurface, or airspace;

(d) Labeling, designating, naming, or otherwise

identifying legal lines or land title lines of the United States Rectangular System or any subdivision thereof on any plat, map, exhibit, photograph, photographic composite, or mosaic or photogrammetric map of any portion of the earth's surface for the purpose of recording the same in the Office of Recorder in any county;

(e) Any act or combination of acts that would be

viewed as offering professional land surveying services including:

(1) setting monuments which have the appearance

of or for the express purpose of marking land boundaries, either directly or as an accessory;

(2) providing any sketch, map, plat, report,

monument record, or other document which indicates land boundaries and monuments, or accessory monuments thereto, except that if the sketch, map, plat, report, monument record, or other document is a copy of an original prepared by a Professional Land Surveyor, and if proper reference to that fact be made on that document;

(3) performing topographic surveys, with the

exception of a licensed professional engineer knowledgeable in topographical surveys that performs a topographical survey specific to his or her design project. A licensed professional engineer may not, however, offer topographic surveying services that are independent of his or her specific design project; or

(4) locating, relocating, establishing,

re-establishing, retracing, laying out, or staking of the location, alignment, or elevation of any proposed improvements whose location is dependent upon property lines;

(f) Determining the horizontal or vertical position

or state plane coordinates for any monument or reference point that marks a title or real property line, boundary, or corner, or to set, reset, or replace any monument or reference point on any title or real property;

(g) Creating, preparing, or modifying electronic or

computerized data or maps, including land information systems and geographic information systems, relative to the performance of activities in items (a), (b), (d), (e), (f), and (h) of this Section, except where electronic means or computerized data is otherwise utilized to integrate, display, represent, or assess the created, prepared, or modified data;

(h) Establishing or adjusting any control network or

any geodetic control network or cadastral data as it pertains to items (a) through (g) of this Section together with the assignment of measured values to any United States Rectangular System corners, title or real property corner monuments or geodetic monuments;

(i) Preparing and attesting to the accuracy of a map

or plat showing the land boundaries or lines and marks and monuments of the boundaries or of a map or plat showing the boundaries of surface, subsurface, or air rights;

(j) Executing and issuing certificates, endorsements,

reports, or plats that portray the horizontal or vertical relationship between existing physical objects or structures and one or more corners, datums, or boundaries of any portion of the earth's surface, subsurface, or airspace;

(k) Acting in direct supervision and control of land

surveying activities or acting as a manager in any place of business that solicits, performs, or practices land surveying;

(l) Offering or soliciting to perform any of the

services set forth in this Section.

(225 ILCS 330/16) (from Ch. 111, par. 3266)
(Section scheduled to be repealed on January 1, 2020)
Sec. 16. Unlawful to practice without license or registration. It is unlawful for any person, sole proprietorship, professional service corporation, corporation, partnership, limited liability company, or other entity to practice land surveying, or advertise or display any sign, card or other device which might indicate to the public that the person or entity is entitled to practice as a land surveyor, or use the initials "P.L.S.", "L.S.", or "S.I.T.", use the title "Professional Land Surveyor" or "Land Surveyor-in-Training" or any of their derivations, unless such person holds a valid active license as a Professional Land Surveyor or Land Surveyor-in-Training in the State of Illinois, or such professional service corporation, corporation, partnership, sole proprietorship, limited liability company, or other entity is in compliance with this Act.
(Source: P.A. 88-428.)