Zoidberg, post: 351690, member: 8841 wrote: Public sector surveyors (working for NYS), fresh out of college with a degree and not yet licensed would start as a grade 13. Starting pay is $38,934 and top of grade, after 7 years on the job, is $49,821.
There are only 2 colleges in NY that offer an accredited program for surveying. One being Paul Smith's and the other is Alfred. Paul Smith's tuition (just tuition, not room and board, no meal plan, no books...) is $23,500/year. According to their website regarding tuition and fees a starting survey student can expect to pay $37,850 (rough numbers, obviously) for their first year of college there.
Yes, most of the Alfred bachelor degree graduates take jobs out of state where the salary is higher public and private. Obviously, the NY public sector salary is not reflecting a bachelor degree requirement. Only a high school diploma required for licensure in the state, and the public sector jobs don't require degrees either, although the pay grades reflect that they like associate degree candidates. 39k-50k is good salary for a survey technician with an associate degree in surveying in todays world, although it's not nearly what it should be. The State benefit package is probably worth an additional 15% over the Salary. And there is the senior land surveyor position with NYS at pay grade of around 70k-75k. Private sector licensed surveyors in upper central NY only report about 50k salary according to census data.
Alfred has both associate and bachelor degree program. There's also wanakena via SUNY ESF with an associate degree accredited, and a community college program (not sure if abet accredited yet) at SUNY Ulster. In the NYC metro area NJIT is available. With the proliferation of online learning, a surveying degree should shortly be doable (if not already) by anyone willing to make the effort, and the sacrifices/investments required.
I'm not happy either with costs of college.
Duane Frymire, post: 351695, member: 110 wrote: Yes, most of the Alfred bachelor degree graduates take jobs out of state where the salary is higher public and private. Obviously, the NY public sector salary is not reflecting a bachelor degree requirement. Only a high school diploma required for licensure in the state, and the public sector jobs don't require degrees either, although the pay grades reflect that they like associate degree candidates. 39k-50k is good salary for a survey technician with an associate degree in surveying in todays world, although it's not nearly what it should be. The State benefit package is probably worth an additional 15% over the Salary. And there is the senior land surveyor position with NYS at pay grade of around 70k-75k. Private sector licensed surveyors in upper central NY only report about 50k salary according to census data.
Alfred has both associate and bachelor degree program. There's also wanakena via SUNY ESF with an associate degree accredited, and a community college program (not sure if abet accredited yet) at SUNY Ulster. In the NYC metro area NJIT is available. With the proliferation of online learning, a surveying degree should shortly be doable (if not already) by anyone willing to make the effort, and the sacrifices/investments required.
I'm not happy either with costs of college.
Sr LS positions are VERY rare in NY. I believe DEC has around 2-3 positions statewide, and DOT has 12 positions statewide. Grade 20 positions (LS) require a license but not a degree, probably because a degree is not required to obtain the license (chicken v. egg). I'm not sure that I follow how salary grades would favor an associates degree, at least not in the survey department. PET's and SET's don't have degree requirements. I'm admittedly not overly familiar with the assistant LS series used at DEC but I do personally know plenty of licensed surveyors working at a grade 13 level because there isn't room to move up.
Your $50k estimate for your area sounds spot on to me for an LS. Not that is SHOULD be $50k but that it IS $50k.
Online degrees, as far as I know, while they may become available, they are not accepted toward licensure in NY. Licensing requirements would need to change if online degrees became available. If I recall correctly, recently there were threads here about a college (maybe in Maine???) that was beginning to offer online survey degrees. Although I'm not sure how effective that would be as online programs wouldn't grant the benefit of hands on training. But I guess that's where your M-F gig would fill in... Survey through the day and take your classes at night. It's doable, if someone was so motivated.
Duane Frymire, post: 351695, member: 110 wrote: I'm not happy either with costs of college.
Hijack, but online tuition and fees are just as outrageous in the U.S. (if not overall as expensive) as attending in person; it pays (saves) to look abroad
Penn State World Campus BS in Economics $64,200 plus fees
http://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/degrees-and-certificates/economics-bachelor-of-science/overview
London School of Economics BS in Economics $6,301 (at todays exchange rate)
http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/lse/bsc-economics#fees
The one fly in the ointment is that a typical high school degree in the U.S., without extensive AP classes, is not considered sufficient preparation to gain entrance into a bachelors program in the U.K.. At an institution like University of London or Oxford/Cambridge one generally only takes classes in their major - all the general education is assumed to have taken place at the secondary school level. For example if you want to study law you go straight into a three year law program out of (the equivalent of) high school and graduate with a Bachelor of Laws (LL.B), no bull$#!t four years of useless "pre-law" studies
Higher education fees in the U.S. are a joke - I have a friend who's son is studying math at Cambridge and (including travel) its cheaper than paying out of state tuition at Michigan (which allegedly has a great math department).
James Fleming, post: 351709, member: 136 wrote: Higher education fees in the U.S. are a joke
Yes.
Zoidberg, post: 351703, member: 8841 wrote: Sr LS positions are VERY rare in NY. I believe DEC has around 2-3 positions statewide, and DOT has 12 positions statewide. Grade 20 positions (LS) require a license but not a degree, probably because a degree is not required to obtain the license (chicken v. egg). I'm not sure that I follow how salary grades would favor an associates degree, at least not in the survey department. PET's and SET's don't have degree requirements. I'm admittedly not overly familiar with the assistant LS series used at DEC but I do personally know plenty of licensed surveyors working at a grade 13 level because there isn't room to move up.
Your $50k estimate for your area sounds spot on to me for an LS. Not that is SHOULD be $50k but that it IS $50k.
Online degrees, as far as I know, while they may become available, they are not accepted toward licensure in NY. Licensing requirements would need to change if online degrees became available. If I recall correctly, recently there were threads here about a college (maybe in Maine???) that was beginning to offer online survey degrees. Although I'm not sure how effective that would be as online programs wouldn't grant the benefit of hands on training. But I guess that's where your M-F gig would fill in... Survey through the day and take your classes at night. It's doable, if someone was so motivated.
What I mean by favoring an associate degree is that the pay scale is geared toward that level of education, and agencies are looking for that even if not required by law (same with grade 20 BS). It's one of the elements taken into consideration when grading positions. The LS is not given more than grade 13 in the regular schedule because it's recognized that most don't have a BS degree. The engineering track gets a bit better because it's recognized that most PE's do have a BS. More to it than just degrees, but a substantial part of it.
An abet accredited degree counts toward licensure, whether online or not; other programs must be evaluated by the board and may or may not be accepted in full or part. But yeah, an online in surveying would require cooperation from employers or some weekend or night for hands on in the first two years anyway. There's still the experience required, so not sure how important teaching how to use a total station, etc. at college is. A week on the job and someone can be proficient setting up a tripod, turning angles, cutting brush.
James Fleming, post: 351709, member: 136 wrote: Hijack, but online tuition and fees are just as outrageous in the U.S. (if not overall as expensive) as attending in person; it pays (saves) to look abroad
Penn State World Campus BS in Economics $64,200 plus fees
http://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/degrees-and-certificates/economics-bachelor-of-science/overviewLondon School of Economics BS in Economics $6,301 (at todays exchange rate)
http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/lse/bsc-economics#feesThe one fly in the ointment is that a typical high school degree in the U.S., without extensive AP classes, is not considered sufficient preparation to gain entrance into a bachelors program in the U.K.. At an institution like University of London or Oxford/Cambridge one generally only takes classes in their major - all the general education is assumed to have taken place at the secondary school level. For example if you want to study law you go straight into a three year law program out of (the equivalent of) high school and graduate with a Bachelor of Laws (LL.B), no bull$#!t four years of useless "pre-law" studies
Higher education fees in the U.S. are a joke - I have a friend who's son is studying math at Cambridge and (including travel) its cheaper than paying out of state tuition at Michigan (which allegedly has a great math department).
Didn't mean to imply online would currently be cheaper, just more widely accessible to working people. And it's no joke, it's hurting a lot of people and families and needs to be changed. It's not only the cost, but transferability of credits, interest rate on loans, acceptability of online v. bricks and mortar, etc.. But I'm not going to jump any higher at your fly on the political line:)
Another view: http://www.pobonline.com/articles/98012-guest-column-hey-dont-shoot-the-teacher
It's still a head and hands profession.
One can be a blinding genius in many aspects of cadastral surveying but, when let loose in the field, without sufficient common sense practical experience ..................
YOS
From POB's article:
".....Allowing undereducated, ÛÏfield-trainedÛ technicians to become Professional Land Surveyors would defeat that goal. Even if these technicians were allowed to sit for the exams, it is unlikely they would ever to be able to pass them...."
What a bunch o' bull. I knew there was reason I can't stand to read that rag.
paden cash, post: 352032, member: 20 wrote: From POB's article:
".....Allowing undereducated, ÛÏfield-trainedÛ technicians to become Professional Land Surveyors would defeat that goal. Even if these technicians were allowed to sit for the exams, it is unlikely they would ever to be able to pass them...."
What a bunch o' bull. I knew there was reason I can't stand to read that rag.
DEREK G. GRAHAM OLS OLIP, post: 352031, member: 285 wrote: Another view: http://www.pobonline.com/articles/98012-guest-column-hey-dont-shoot-the-teacher
It's still a head and hands profession.
One can be a blinding genius in many aspects of cadastral surveying but, when let loose in the field, without sufficient common sense practical experience ..................
YOS
[USER=20]@paden cash[/USER]
Someone had to say it. I knew that line would get some flac. It was really the only sentence that could serve as fodder for a rebuttal. I really wish it was worded differently. Describing the POB as a rag is pretty accurate though, that comment in particular made me laugh. Perhaps if there was more education offered then there would be more scholarly articles about land survey? SaLIS comes to mind. In the authors defense I think he was referring to the technician demographic that keeps a 9-5 with no substantial learning or desire to learn. I for one agree that a college degree is not needed to make a good surveyor, but also believe that not having a degree requirement is not what is best for the profession.
@Derek
True statement. But the inverse is also true. I don't really see that as an argument against degree requirements. The surveyor needs both "heads and hands" as you pointed out. I don't know anyone that will argue that.
Zoidberg, post: 351690, member: 8841 wrote: Public sector surveyors (working for NYS), fresh out of college with a degree and not yet licensed would start as a grade 13. Starting pay is $38,934 and top of grade, after 7 years on the job, is $49,821.
It is a bit odd to argue this issue across state lines because it does seem that things are different in each state. How much so I can't really tell yet. For one what does "land surveyor" mean. In California you can't be called one unless you are licensed. The term gets thrown around a lot.
Here is California I watch job boards all the time on multiple sites. The thing I noticed with public sector jobs is that they are for the long run. You don't make much at a starting position but it slowly goes up for each year of service and the retirement usually more than makes up for it. Plus many public sector jobs pay 100k+, I see them come up all the time. They require a license and most of the time require (maybe prefer) a 4 year degree in Land Survey or a related field. I can't imagine the cost of living is much higher in California than in New York?
I would think a graduate would be happy to make in the 40-50k range coming out of college. Anything else is laughable.
Posted before I was done writing. Starting to rant but I wanted one more thing in there.
James Fleming, post: 351709, member: 136 wrote: Penn State World Campus BS in Economics $64,200 plus fees
http://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/degrees-and-certificates/economics-bachelor-of-science/overview
I too am not happy with college tuition. Something is wrong with the system and i don't think anyone is working fast enough to fix it. It is possible to get through relatively unscathed though. And getting an engineering degree is well worth the money spent.
I looked at the Penn state fees. Those prices are for housing too? And a lot of times meals are included too (nothing special). Considering it is four years, that is 16 thousand a year, and summers are off. Not bad for what most consider the best time of their lives. London for some reason is expensive. If you use Germany as the example you could get a masters degree for nearly nothing, and a good one at that. They have pay colleges too if you can afford it.
OIT (Oregon) has from what I hear a great program and the tuition there is only 3500 a semester. Much more do-able. Not sure if it is coincidence or not but Penn does not have a degree requirement and if I am not mistaken, Oregon does?
The real trick is working the system, for better or worse, the schools are set up to suck in financial aid from students. Not sure how it is in Penn but in California they have a "state university grant", most students can get it and it covers 2000-3000 a semester. Then there are multiple other grants if you qualify and it is not just for broke kids or "immigrants".. I don't want to get into the politics of it, don't care much for it, I am only stating how it is set up right now. Add in any scholarships and the cost comes down quite a bit, if you are a good student you may even make money while in school. Most students don't know how to jump through those hoops and get terrible advice from "advisors". The system is set up to collect money. Don't get me started on textbooks, Pearson owns that racket. Those costs can sometimes be avoided too. Then there are the benefits to going too, colleges have rec classes that are free to students, tuitions max out at 12 units so any other rec classes can be taken. Gyms to play in, swimming pools, events...
Of course the advantage wears off as you get older but that is not a good reason to not require a degree. One thing you learn in college is that no one has time for anything. It is called time management. There are always excuses and people have priorities.
Beau_Immel, post: 352070, member: 8320 wrote: Posted before I was done writing. Starting to rant but I wanted one more thing in there.
I too am not happy with college tuition. Something is wrong with the system and i don't think anyone is working fast enough to fix it. It is possible to get through relatively unscathed though. And getting an engineering degree is well worth the money spent.
I looked at the Penn state fees. Those prices are for housing too? And a lot of times meals are included too (nothing special). Considering it is four years, that is 16 thousand a year, and summers are off. Not bad for what most consider the best time of their lives. London for some reason is expensive. If you use Germany as the example you could get a masters degree for nearly nothing, and a good one at that. They have pay colleges too if you can afford it.
OIT (Oregon) has from what I hear a great program and the tuition there is only 3500 a semester. Much more do-able. Not sure if it is coincidence or not but Penn does not have a degree requirement and if I am not mistaken, Oregon does?
The real trick is working the system, for better or worse, the schools are set up to suck in financial aid from students. Not sure how it is in Penn but in California they have a "state university grant", most students can get it and it covers 2000-3000 a semester. Then there are multiple other grants if you qualify and it is not just for broke kids or "immigrants".. I don't want to get into the politics of it, don't care much for it, I am only stating how it is set up right now. Add in any scholarships and the cost comes down quite a bit, if you are a good student you may even make money while in school. Most students don't know how to jump through those hoops and get terrible advice from "advisors". The system is set up to collect money. Don't get me started on textbooks, Pearson owns that racket. Those costs can sometimes be avoided too. Then there are the benefits to going too, colleges have rec classes that are free to students, tuitions max out at 12 units so any other rec classes can be taken. Gyms to play in, swimming pools, events...
Of course the advantage wears off as you get older but that is not a good reason to not require a degree. One thing you learn in college is that no one has time for anything. It is called time management. There are always excuses and people have priorities.
Last I looked PA had a associate degree requirement, and no experience counts until after you earn the degree and pass the FS exam.
Duane Frymire, post: 352084, member: 110 wrote: Last I looked PA had a associate degree requirement, and no experience counts until after you earn the degree and pass the FS exam.
Many licensing jurisdictions have laws that state that experience can't count until after graduation. Even in California for the professional engineer applicants, if the applicant requests a degree to count towards the overall work experience, all work claimed must be after the date of graduation to qualify. And California doesn't require a degree!
Personally, I believe these statutes are practically contradictory in nature and don't like it. The laws for the land surveyor don't state this same criteria. Both sets of laws however allow for some credit for non-qualifying engineering or surveying degrees, including associate.
I'm a firm believer that not everyone takes the "traditional" route of going straight to college right out of high school, graduating, and then working. Life gets in the way sometimes and for those that obtain a degree after starting a career or over a longer period of time (part time or evenings while working) should have the same opportunities. Its the education that is important, not when it is obtained.
Ric Moore, post: 352158, member: 731 wrote: Many licensing jurisdictions have laws that state that experience can't count until after graduation. Even in California for the professional engineer applicants, if the applicant requests a degree to count towards the overall work experience, all work claimed must be after the date of graduation to qualify. And California doesn't require a degree!
Personally, I believe these statutes are practically contradictory in nature and don't like it. The laws for the land surveyor don't state this same criteria. Both sets of laws however allow for some credit for non-qualifying engineering or surveying degrees, including associate.
I'm a firm believer that not everyone takes the "traditional" route of going straight to college right out of high school, graduating, and then working. Life gets in the way sometimes and for those that obtain a degree after starting a career or over a longer period of time (part time or evenings while working) should have the same opportunities. Its the education that is important, not when it is obtained.
I totally agree Ric.
I am a good example: I had 10 years of Party Chief and office experience before I went back to school and got a degree in surveying. I took and passed the LSIT in my sophomore year. Then applied to take the LS in Idaho upon graduating. I was turned down because my experience came prior to passing the LSIT. So I had a BS in surveying, 10 years of experience, LSIT, and I couldn't sit for the test because they were in the wrong order! Luckily, I appealed and was allowed to sit for the examination.
Non-traditional Ed
Exactly my point Ed. Didn't realize you encountered that. Based on the timing of when that occurred I can see how that would have happened though. Idaho had a very good Executive Director for a long time (and also has a good one now) but staff and board members are mandated to comply with the same laws that applicants are.
My background is similar to yours Ed. I got about half of my degree going to school off and on between working in MI, took off several years and then went back and completed my degree at OIT with about 10 years of experience behind me. I applied to take the LS exam in OR and was approved on experience and was licensed several months before graduation. Maybe it's a good thing that I didn't wait a year to apply based upon a degree with experience.
It makes no sense to me that if a state will approve an application based on experience alone, how they can rationalize that all of the experience that would have counted toward an application based only on experience would become useless once someone earns a degree.
