Wal1170, post: 433622, member: 10610 wrote: Obviously there is a strong division here, and obviously I fall on the side against the use of programmable calculators. But all I hear by the proponents of using programmable calculators is how hard the exam is, if you are surprised by anything that shows up on the exam, you haven't prepared yourself very well. Especially when you can get practice exams and they give you a break down of the content.
The 'all I hear' is an overstatement. Handhelds with simple programs are useful for performing repetative or tedious tasks and reducing simple arithmetic errors. They won't magically drag an incompetent person over the finish line on an exam. You still have to approach the problem correctly.
The hardest LS exam Ive ever taken had about 20 minutes of calcs. A laptop with cadd would have cut that to 10, and would not have effected my score. If the exams have become math tests we should hand the keys to an Engineer and start retraining now.
JPH, post: 433644, member: 6636 wrote: I took it in the test in '99, so I have no idea what it's like today. I remember a few math problems that required a calculator, but not necessarily a programmable one.
One problem in particular, where we were given a few points and their coordinates, and you needed to determine the bearings, and then the stake-out angles. I'd been doing that in the field with my simple Casio calculator, so it wasn't a problem for me. But I can see it being an issue today, where everyone's using data collection functions, and they're not in the habit of doing it long-hand, or never really knew how.
I think a surveyor should be able to do that without a calculator. I'm not saying they should actually do it without a calculator day to day, but they should know how to do it without a calculator.
They can't pose every possible real world survey scenario on the exam and then see if you can solve it. They have to test if you are smart enough to be able to figure this stuff out. A "program" won't always give you the best answer and you should be able to use your brain. Learning how to solve complex mathematical equations is more about using your brain to analyze data and apply the rules to come up with the correct solution.
Dan Patterson, post: 433672, member: 1179 wrote: I think a surveyor should be able to do that without a calculator.
Really? You think that people should be able to do inverse tangents using tables instead of using a calculator? Or did you mean programmable calculator?
I can't even remember if I've ever done that, and see no useful purpose, as long as you understand trig.
JPH, post: 433677, member: 6636 wrote: Really? You think that people should be able to do inverse tangents using tables instead of using a calculator? Or did you mean programmable calculator?
I can't even remember if I've ever done that, and see no useful purpose, as long as you understand trig.
I mean a "programmable calculator". Sorry.
Using a table and doing arithmetic are less important in demonstrating ones ability to solve problems in my opinion.
Dan Patterson, post: 433679, member: 1179 wrote: I mean a "programmable calculator". Sorry.
Using a table and doing arithmetic are less important in demonstrating ones ability to solve problems in my opinion.
Ok, great. I agree.
I ended up going with the EasyCogo programming and have roughly half of it entered in currently. It looks to be a pretty decent program so far. Once I get everything entered I'll start applying it to some practice questions and see how it works.
The Ted Madsons, and Tony Nettlemans programs look like they would work well too, but were much more money. I didn't want to spend $400-$500 for what I wanted.
Mark Flora, post: 433707, member: 12401 wrote: I ended up going with the EasyCogo programming and have roughly half of it entered in currently. It looks to be a pretty decent program so far. Once I get everything entered I'll start applying it to some practice questions and see how it works.
The Ted Madsons, and Tony Nettlemans programs look like they would work well too, but were much more money. I didn't want to spend $400-$500 for what I wanted.
Mark,
If your interested I could show you the programs. I be a Watkins Glen International Raceway this Saturday doing layout. Not far from you.
The test is computer based and there has been talk of doing away with calculators all together and having a calculator on the computer. I used basic programs such as horizontal and vertical curves on a hp35. The programs will not pass the test for you. You still have to know how to solve the problems. The programs mainly help with time and I needed every min they give. The computer practice exam shows you the format only. The exam will soon change formats. It will no longer be all multiple choice. It will have fill in the blank, drag and drop, pick best 4 out of 10, drag from least important to greatest, and etc. The PS has already changed to that format. My advice is take the practice exam and see which area you need to study. Good Luck
Paul in PA, post: 433617, member: 236 wrote: Had you batteries died, you should have had a back up.
You can only take one calculator in the exam now. I tried to take two in and was denied.
leegreen, post: 433708, member: 2332 wrote: Mark,
If your interested I could show you the programs. I be a Watkins Glen International Raceway this Saturday doing layout. Not far from you.
Thanks for the offer, but I have a family engagement already scheduled for Saturday. I appreciate it though.
JBN ARK, post: 433742, member: 11757 wrote: You can only take one calculator in the exam now. I tried to take two in and was denied.
What possible reason would they have for that?
Bill93, post: 433802, member: 87 wrote: What possible reason would they have for that?
. Pearson center makes you empty all pockets and put all but one calculator in a locker. You can only get into your locker during your break. If your calculator dies, you are to use the one on the computer. Your are supplied a dry erase board and marker for scratch paper. That and one calculator is all you will take in.
JBN ARK, post: 433810, member: 11757 wrote: . Pearson center makes you empty all pockets and put all but one calculator in a locker. You can only get into your locker during your break. If your calculator dies, you are to use the one on the computer. Your are supplied a dry erase board and marker for scratch paper. That and one calculator is all you will take in.
Also be careful if you do have a programmed calculator. As some Pearson centers ask you to remove the batteries. To do this without loosing data on a HP33 or HP35, you remove only one battery and replace it before removing the other battery. Never remove both batteries. Going into the exam at Pearson Vue center feels like going into prison. You will need to remove jackets, sweaters, roll up your sleeves, pull up your pant legs, remove your glasses for inspection (google glass), your palm prints taken 4 times, and a photo taken. All this before you enter the exam room. If you exit the room, much of this procedure is done again before re-entering.
Lee, your comment about Pearson sparked a memory from my FS exam not long ago at one of the first CBE rounds. Make sure to be aware of what the staff is doing with your calculator. I handed mine over so that it could be checked against the approved list. After randomly pushing buttons for a couple of minutes to "check the memory" it was handed back to me. When I sat down to take my test, I realized they had no clue about the memory and it was set in random modes/units/etc. It took me about 20 minutes to figure out how and where all the settings were to get it back to normal.
leegreen, post: 433819, member: 2332 wrote: Also be careful if you do have a programmed calculator. As some Pearson centers ask you to remove the batteries. To do this without loosing data on a HP33 or HP35, you remove only one battery and replace it before removing the other battery. Never remove both batteries. Going into the exam at Pearson Vue center feels like going into prison. You will need to remove jackets, sweaters, roll up your sleeves, pull up your pant legs, remove your glasses for inspection (google glass), your palm prints taken 4 times, and a photo taken. All this before you enter the exam room. If you exit the room, much of this procedure is done again before re-entering.
Sounds like multiple cavity searches are just around the corner... NOT GOOD.
The only superior evidence is that which you haven't yet found.
Some of these actions sound like gross over reach to me. When the proctor or test center employees start changing settings on calculators or place limits not established by NCEES its time to smack back.
I never used a COGO program for the FS and I don't think it will help you unless you know how to recognize how to solve a problem. The way the math questions are worded, especially the horizontal curve problems, you need to quickly recognize what you need to solve in order to ACTUALLY start using your common horizontal curve formulas. Without a doubt I still recommend a cogo program for the test because it saves time.
A couple of years after I passed those test I got the EasyCogo one, and it's perfect. It took me a good 5 hrs to program the HP35 but it helped me learn the calculator almost inside and out.
I have always felt that the test for licensure is to know how to handle the computations necessary to obtain the answer and not that one knows how to operate the office machines.
All that is required is a scientific calculator that has a polar to rectangular function and at least one or two memory banks.