Don't get me wrong I don't know the details of what went on in Arkansas, I've heard it was truth and I've heard it was blown out of proportion. So I shouldn't even bring it up. A manual of expected time would put us in the same boat as mechanics, so I'm sure the general public would be happy when Surveyor A says the book says I should charge you
X but surveyor B says X minus 30% because the book is wrong.
Kent McMillan, post: 423684, member: 3 wrote: There is a BIG difference between a price-fixing scheme (as evidently happened in Arkansas) and an agreement as to how much time various elements of survey work typically take for different types of projects. This is why a time estimation manual would be useful to practitioners in estimating fees and to regulatory boards in identifying prima facie evidence of incompetent practice. What services should cost and how much time they typically require to do competently are two entirely different propositions.
TXSurveyor, post: 423690, member: 6719 wrote: Don't get me wrong I don't know the details of what went on in Arkansas, I've heard it was truth and I've heard it was blown out of proportion. So I shouldn't even bring it up. A manual of expected time would put us in the same boat as mechanics, so I'm sure the general public would be happy when Surveyor A says the book says I should charge you
X but surveyor B says X minus 30% because the book is wrong.
No, the manual gives an idea of how much time researching a parcel similar in some important respects to a prospective client's takes. It's incompetent foolishness to pretend that some research necessary to answer various basic questions isn't necessary, to the salient question is how many hours for some task in some specific context, i.e. specific county and specific survey. As for how much money the expected number of hours of research translates into, the manual is silent.
As for belittling auto mechanics (and plumbers): my experience has been that they generally do a much better job of dealing with fee issues than surveyors do since they begin with the premise that the work will take what it takes and won't take it on until they have a good idea of what will be required or an understanding as to contingencies. I think that most land surveyors could learn quite a bit from how plumbers do business.
Mechanics follow a book for all their labor charges.
Plumbers follow much the same.
Parts and materials are extra.
There is no way to set a "time required" to find control and make a boundary survey.
From experience, it is only possible to estimate what you are going to charge somebody.
A Harris, post: 423701, member: 81 wrote: There is no way to set a "time required" to find control and make a boundary survey.
From experience, it is only possible to estimate what you are going to charge somebody.
From experience, I'd disagree. What a professional surveyor would do first is what a garage mechanic has the sense to do: diagnose the problem. In surveying terms that would require both an investigation of the public records and some preliminary worn on the ground to get a pretty good idea of how the survey should proceed. I see charging for what is in effect the time required to develop an estimate as an entirely legitimate charge and the mechanics would share that view.
As for plumbers, I think that most land surveyors would upgrade their status in life to collect the sort of fees that the plumbers I've hired do.
For example, you have a parcel that is described by reference to descriptions that appear to be roughly 100 years old. Anyone familiar with the research resources in that county should have some idea as to how much time it will take to identify the instrument in which the description first appeared and also track the sequence of conveyances by which the boundaries of the parcek were created. I'm not talking about the nearest 15 minutes, but how many half-days.
I recently called a plumber to install a toilet. I didn't want to hear about the process, or the challenges or why it was going to take a certain amount of time, I just wanted the job done. After he saw the job I encouraged him to just give me a fixed cost but he refused, stated he only wanted to work by the hour. What he didn't realize was that I would have been willing to pay more just to have a clean fixed cost to work with. He could have given me a worst case cost and I probably would have gone for it, but he was so afraid of not getting his hourly rate that he lost out on the opportunity to make more money.
roger_LS, post: 423711, member: 11550 wrote: I recently called a plumber to install a toilet. I didn't want to hear about the process, or the challenges or why it was going to take a certain amount of time, I just wanted the job done. After he saw the job I encouraged him to just give me a fixed cost but he refused, stated he only wanted to work by the hour.
In other words, you hired a professional plumber who realized that working for time and expenses paid much better over a career than trying to leave a trail of hit-and-run opportunistically-priced jobs behind him. New construction would be predictable, but dealing with existing installations would have its surprises.
Professional or working-class stiff? In this case he probably lost a couple hundred bucks. I saw someone that didn't understand the art of business which includes the ability to accurately read people and situations.
Kent McMillan, post: 423723, member: 3 wrote: In other words, you hired a professional plumber who realized that working for time and expenses paid much better over a career than trying to leave a trail of hit-and-run opportunistically-priced jobs behind him. New construction would be predictable, but dealing with existing installations would have its surprises.
No, he hired someone and was willing to consider the value of the product in the fee. The 'professional' went for cost and parts.
The number of moving parts on a boundary problem makes the estimating manual all but useless. Minor variations in circumstance can change costs by thousands of dollars. Only experience tells you when to expect things to go south (or north depending on perspective). The nuances dont lend themselves to a flowchart well.
The other consideration should be more obvious. The 'professions' (trades actually) you tout are constantly being investigated and exposed for fraud and deceit. Apparently their little books havent helped all that much. It just get's them started faster on a bad business road.
I realize that surveying and web design are two different animals. However, I have applied a lot of what I learned about surveying business into my web design business and it works. Early on with my web design business, I was pricing myself cheap and even doing some pro bono work to get established. It made sense at first, simply because I needed to get a start. But I stayed with the cheap pricing for too long and struggled with the amount of time I was spending on projects versus the reward. When it finally dawned on me that I needed to raise my prices, it was a scary thought -- I had clientele at the lower pricing and worried that I would lose all my business overnight. But it simply was not true. I raised my prices significantly and marketed myself with more confidence and I'm now busier than I ever thought I'd be.
This might sound terrible, but I stand by it because I've proven it: by raising my rates significantly, I have weeded out the craigslist buyers completely. They don't even call anymore. And this makes me happy. I'm making a name for myself locally and people call simply because they were either referred by another happy client or they saw my work on another website and liked what they saw. Moral of the story: do good work, charge accordingly, and market yourself with confidence. You get what you pay for (most of the time).
TXSurveyor, post: 423675, member: 6719 wrote: By the way I had a guy tell me the other day surveying has gotten so much easier for surveyors since we got smart phones.....
That's funny; I laughed so hard I cried...:sob:
roger_LS, post: 423735, member: 11550 wrote: Professional or working-class stiff? In this case he probably lost a couple hundred bucks. I saw someone that didn't understand the art of business which includes the ability to accurately read people and situations.
Actually plumbers are licensed just as land surveyors are, except that there is a more obvious public safety, health, and welfare reason for licensing plumbers than land surveyors. :>
I take a broader view of the term "professional" as meaning a way of going about things that takes the long view of things, instead of the quick money path of convenience.
thebionicman, post: 423738, member: 8136 wrote: The number of moving parts on a boundary problem makes the estimating manual all but useless.
That would not describe my experience since quite a number of known factors so reliably increase the time that a survey will require that one can see it coming in advance. I realize that lump sum pricing has the allure of quick and easy money when you have some unsuspecting member of the public in your sights, but what follows from it is the downward spiral of price competition and corner cutting.
The obvious advantage to an estimation manual is that it provides a reality test based upon broad experience. For example, if part of the work required abstracting the chains of title of two adjoining tracts back to 1880, the time that will be required typically depends upon a number of factors such as:
- is an abstract company willing to sell access to their plant information?
- does their plant go back to sovereignty?
- are records from sovereignty available on line?
- have any recent resurveys of the land or that adjacent cited the instruments that created the boundary in question?
If the survey involves multiple original land grants:
- are the surveys in an office survey block?
- were other adjacent land grants also surveyed at the same time?
- how extensive an area needs to be examined in order to analyze the block or system?
- are the patent files available on line or do copies have to be ordered from the GLO?
and, of course:
- does the county map disclose what appear to be vacancies?
Giving a fixed price tied to the value of my product is not 'quick and easy', nor is it some form of victimisation. It's good business.
Many variations can be foreseen based on experience. Some very expensive ones cannot. My prices include what i will do for the fee and potential issues that will raise the price. The model must work because my clients return again and again.
A little a la carte menu sounds more like burger king than a Professional Service. Im not a burger flipper, plumber or drywaller. Nothing wrong with those folks but im not them.
thebionicman, post: 423749, member: 8136 wrote: Giving a fixed price tied to the value of my product is not 'quick and easy', nor is it some form of victimisation. It's good business..
I agree.
A number of smaller communities around here require a survey and "plot plan" for both residential construction and modular home permits. By the time they figure out they need a survey,,,,,, they're scrambling. Most of these areas are unplatted m&b in which I've worked for years and could probably find the corners blindfolded. Even if a section breakdown becomes necessary (doubtful) I can still muddle through a trip to the courthouse and the field work in a day. Thousand bucks at current billing rate. A day to sit and read and draw it up is another 1K.
I always quote these folks a "not to exceed" 2500 dollars and generally spend a lot less than 2 days on them. I haven't ever sent an invoice for less than 2200 in my memory. At current hourly rates most would wind up running around 1500 to 1700 dollars. If I only have a total of 8 or 10 hours invested and the property owner wants a lath line down each 330' side, I give them the extra hour and they think I'm a nice guy (I really am). But in the big picture they've probably already compensated me for an extra hour or more.
A fixed cap on a good estimate is not a foolish endeavor. I mean after all some of us are actually trying to MAKE SOME MONEY for chissake.
But these are all in the surrounding counties in areas I'm very familiar with. If I had to drive 5 hours out to a bleached godforsaken moonscape to search miles for a pile of rocks or become snake-bait I might rethink the business approach. All business models are not applicable to every scenario.
Amen.
thebionicman, post: 423749, member: 8136 wrote: Giving a fixed price tied to the value of my product is not 'quick and easy', nor is it some form of victimisation. It's good business.
Many variations can be foreseen based on experience. Some very expensive ones cannot. My prices include what i will do for the fee and potential issues that will raise the price. The model must work because my clients return again and again.
Well, to make money within a fixed price model, you have to consistently relieve your clients of more money than the service would have cost them had you done it for time and materials. Otherwise, you're on the losing end of things, which you say you aren't. Do you explain to your clients that it will most likely cost them less to hire you on a time and material basis or do you omit to mention that?
A little a la carte menu sounds more like burger king than a Professional Service. Im not a burger flipper, plumber or drywaller. Nothing wrong with those folks but im not them.
It sounds to me as if you don't provide an itemized invoice for services as someone who charges based upon time and materials would. That only further turns the professional service into a commodity.
"Honey, that last bill I got from Bionic Surveying says : 'Made survey. $5,400'. Can you call DoubleQuixenSurveying to see how much they charge to 'make a survey?' "
Leading the public to believe that purchasing surveying services is just like buying any other commodity has to continue to be a big loser for the profession.
paden cash, post: 423771, member: 20 wrote: A fixed cap on a good estimate is not a foolish endeavor. I mean after all some of us are actually trying to MAKE SOME MONEY for chissake.
"Honey, I just called Cash Surveying and them boys sez that they can git'er done for $2500 samoleons and would be out here tomorrow. But then I called RealExperts Mapping and they said that they could beat that price by enough money to buy skirting for the house. The real estate lady tells me that she never pays more than $500 for a survey, so I think we're getting taken for a ride."
"Well, just call a few more folks and see how much they charge for a survey. Don't tell them your name or where we live, though. You just want to know the price they charge."
Kent McMillan, post: 423825, member: 3 wrote: Well, to make money within a fixed price model, you have to consistently relieve your clients of more money than the service would have cost them had you done it for time and materials. Otherwise, you're on the losing end of things, which you say you aren't. Do you explain to your clients that it will most likely cost them less to hire you on a time and material basis or do you omit to mention that?
It sounds to me as if you don't provide an itemized invoice for services as someone who charges based upon time and materials would. That only further turns the professional service into a commodity.
"Honey, that last bill I got from Bionic Surveying says : 'Made survey. $5,400'. Can you call DoubleQuixenSurveying to see how much they charge to 'make a survey?' "
Leading the public to believe that purchasing surveying services is just like buying any other commodity has to continue to be a big loser for the profession.
I dont know anyone who explains to clients that the price would be less if the company changed its business model. That would be strange.
My clients know the scope before i start and they see which items are performed on each invoice. The idea that all i tell them is here's your bill is a fiction invented by you.
Im not sure why you would want to get paid less than the value of your end product, but that's your business.
Kent McMillan, post: 423825, member: 3 wrote: Well, to make money within a fixed price model, you have to consistently relieve your clients of more money than the service would have cost them had you done it for time and materials. Otherwise, you're on the losing end of things, which you say you aren't. Do you explain to your clients that it will most likely cost them less to hire you on a time and material basis or do you omit to mention that?
It sounds to me as if you don't provide an itemized invoice for services as someone who charges based upon time and materials would. That only further turns the professional service into a commodity.
"Honey, that last bill I got from Bionic Surveying says : 'Made survey. $5,400'. Can you call DoubleQuixenSurveying to see how much they charge to 'make a survey?' "
Leading the public to believe that purchasing surveying services is just like buying any other commodity has to continue to be a big loser for the profession.
I'm honestly suprised that you think professionalism and prices qouted in a manual go hand in hand. Two different things
In my book
