So, SWMBO is considering buying some land in Michigan, her home state, and she has been looking at small farms. We've seen plenty of nice little hobby farms on the internet, many with great old barns on them. That got me to thinking about dirt floors, and what kind of hazardous materials may be in that dirt. I have a pretty good idea.
I am wondering what might be the best course of action to mitigate exposure to nasty stuff?
Is it best to dig out the dirt several inches and dispose of it properly?
Is it best to leave it in place and maybe put a concrete floor over it?
When I say best, I don't necessarily mean the cheapest way financially.
I can't even imagine all the horrible possibilities involved in the "proper" disposal of soil contaminated with hazardous chemicals.
Personally, if I was concerned enough to do a haz-mat clean up, I would be having serious reservations about the purchase. I would also be thinking of my responsibility to disclose my knowledge of the ground contamination if I wanted to sell the property in the future.
I have a friend that bought a house and discovered that the previous owner had filled an old swimming pool with household garbage, then covered it with dirt. A contractor was hired to excavate then truck the garbage to the dump and the bill was sent to the prior owner.
Kind of depends on what you would want to use a barn for.
If you would want to convert it into a recreational space.. improving the foundation and pouring a slab would make sense.
Personally, if it would be used as a garage, equipment storage, hay, ect. , I'd probably hose the inside down real good and then bring in 3 or 4 inches of base rock..and not lose a minute of sleep over it.
If you are considering removal, you might as well scrape that lead paint first.
As usual, it depends.
Is there a well nearby? Does the geology lend itself to natural filtration? What will I be doing in the barn?
In many cases you will cause more problems digging up contamination than you will solve. Others you are risking the health and welfare of anyone nearby by not cleaning it up.
I've worked on bio, Chem and rad sites off and on for over 35 years. I can say with certainty there are too many variables to get a realistic answer on this (or any other) site.
Livestock barns can collect enough hay and manure over the years to a depth of two or three feet. One remedy is to run a disk through it and drag it out or use a front loader to move it all to a more suitable location. If you are truly concerned about any toxic material (trace pesticides and herbicides are the only thing that come to mind) I suggest you contact a testing lab for sampling and testing. Removal, containment and disposal of toxic soils can quickly become very expensive. Find out what's in the dirt...then go from there.
Daniel Ralph, post: 336086, member: 8817 wrote: If you are considering removal, you might as well scrape that lead paint first.
I agree with Daniel, old manure may be the least of your worries. I'd think that putting a concrete slab down would be a useful upgrade. But doing so would require removing any organic material first to prepare the base.
paden cash, post: 336088, member: 20 wrote: Livestock barns can collect enough hay and manure over the years to a depth of two or three feet. One remedy is to run a disk through it and drag it out or use a front loader to move it all to a more suitable location. If you are truly concerned about any toxic material (trace pesticides and herbicides are the only thing that come to mind) I suggest you contact a testing lab for sampling and testing. Removal, containment and disposal of toxic soils can quickly become very expensive. Find out what's in the dirt...then go from there.
Seems like there could be some spilled fuel in there too. I worked on a project where a portion of the hazmat work was wiping deisel fuel residue off of railroad rails (Oddly, the wooden ties into which it had been absorbed were not an issue). It was FAR more complicated a process that you can imagine...
Thanks for the replies. The question was purely hypothetical as we don't have any one property in mind yet, but I have started to wonder what may turn up on an old farm.
D. J. Fenton, post: 336104, member: 22 wrote: ...but I have started to wonder what may turn up on an old farm.
Joe Pesci's demise in Casino...just sayin'
Jim in AZ, post: 336100, member: 249 wrote: Seems like there could be some spilled fuel in there too. I worked on a project where a portion of the hazmat work was wiping deisel fuel residue off of railroad rails (Oddly, the wooden ties into which it had been absorbed were not an issue). It was FAR more complicated a process that you can imagine...
That's weird because after they remove all of the diesel contaminated soil from the fuel stations...they spread it out in the sun and allow UV rays to break it down. Of all the hazardous stuff in a railroad right of way...diesel on the rail is hardly anything to worry about (maybe for stopping). Rail road right of ways are the most contaminated places I know of.
DJ & SWMBO-
Alexandra and I were in your position 20 years ago when we bought a 'money pit' (AKA Hobby Farm).
The previous owners were a diligent pair as far as 'environment' so we dug out and put in a sand base in the bank barn arena and poured a roughened (not smooth) concrete floor that could be cleaned with air hose and is not slippery to the lawn ornaments (cows & horses).
How about in your purchase agreement an environmental report be prepared by the vendor at its expense ?
You'll be really paying for it in the cost, but ..............
Cheers,
Derek
The list of potentials in virtually endless. However, the vast majority of what was there at one time has been cured by nature. One needs to remember that all sorts of places had different uses at different times through the history of civilization. Think of all the privies that used to exist in Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, etc. long before the advent of modern plumbing.
The list of potentials for any specific barn would be a challenge to determine unless the seller has a 70 year occupation of said barn. One should remember that the general area around a farmstead has similar, but possibly different potentials to be evaluated.
Say the farmer spilled five gallons of DDT in 1950. What is there now? Perhaps a spilled jug of sheep dip or the disinfecting agent used extensively in dairy barns prior to modern mechanical milking systems. Biological concerns are probably long gone, however. For example, anywhere horses deposit their semisolid waste material there is a potential for tetanus and lockjaw in the soil. Rooting hogs kept in such an area years after the horse occupation may develop such problems from ingesting bits of the soil that is laden with the bad stuff.
DEREK G. GRAHAM OLS OLIP, post: 336110, member: 285 wrote: How about in your purchase agreement an environmental report be prepared by the vendor at its expense ?
That is exactly what I was thinking. Get a phase 1 with the results tied to your easy exit from the contract during due-diligence.
A reputable Env. Consultant should be able to do it for a reasonable price and give you a layman's interpretation of the findings. If they recommend a phase 2, you can weigh the identified issue against your intended use. With the consultants input, you make the go/ no-go call.
Hypothetical for instance: minimal potential for diesel in the groundwater. You could drill and test in a phase 2. But, you have municipal water available and won't be putting in a well. Potentially skip the phase 2, make an informed buy and roll on.
Good luck.
Know anybody in prison? You could have a casual conversation with them on the prison phone about what to do with all the loot and bodies buried in that old barn. Come by the next day and you'll have that barn floor all dug up. Just hope they don't actually find anything.
