When is the lot / parcel created in Pennsylvania?

At least in Virginia I agree with you. I know that Tax Map parcel numbers are created at that time.

And if public roads are created / dedicated, that is the moment they are created.

But this begs another question about private right-of-ways. Until the owner sells a lot, can he create private right-of-ways to his own lots. Some on here think that you can't create a right-of-way to your own land. I disagree. I think you create right-of-ways to parcels, not owners. OK, go ahead and have at me.

I've always thought that there had to be a conveyance to actually create a new parcel. The sub plat is the regulatory permission to do this, allow the conveyances and creation of the lots. But it is probably more complicated than that. Think about this. If a subdivision is platted but none of the lots are ever sold would it require a vacation to undo it? Probably so but shouldn't be hard to get approval. One real problem would be dedication of streets and other areas. In Utah these dedications are in fee so that probably conveys title when the plat is recorded.

Think you are right David, done around here. Easements across and to separately defined units of land under one ownership can be created for the benefit of those separately defined tracts but not created by an owner to himself.
jud

I was under the impression that as soon as the plan was recorded the lots were created, ergo the simultaneous conveyance of subdivisions idea. I do recall hearing somewhere that Pennsylvania does not treat subdivisions as a simultaneous conveyance, that junior/senior rights were established like subsequent conveyances, though I am not from Penn so likely not well informed about that.

They are created by the plan but do not "exist" until conveyance.

The tax assessor (here anyway) will start assessing those lots as soon as they get the plan !

But rights etc. don't exist until conveyance, they only exist as available for conveyancing.

I can't imagine any other way, actually.

You are correct about Penn. being a Jr. Sr. rights state and that is part of the reason why I'm starting to think that the lot is not created until sold. I'm not sure what to say about public streets etc.

I was thinking about starting a thread about simultaneous conveyances in Penn. as well only calling them simultaneously created parcels instead. If I have a map that shows additional info tying a parcel into other corners not referenced in a deed then why should I ignore that data and just give the guy what his deed says because he is senior? Seems like all data on the map should have equal weight so prorate. Anyway, i'm getting off topic. Thanks for the reply.

It has always been my understanding that the lots exist as soon as the subdivision is recorded. I have also understood that if none of the lots are ever sold, that it would still require an "unplatting" of the lots to undo the subdivision. Now most of my work is done in a county with county-wide zoning (only a few in the state). When it is municipal zoning, anything resembling consistency goes out the window. Now I am curious. I may have to go research (or wait for someone else's response)

But what if the owner decides to build homes/apartments themselves just to rent, not to sell?

> They are created by the plan but do not "exist" until conveyance.
>

Created but don't exist.

Hmmm.

Now I know why your moniker is "foggyidea".

On a similar note, in the great state of California, it has been ruled that subdivsion maps prior to 1929 did not actually creat lots unless the local agency had an ordinance on the books providing for the regulation of design of the subdivsion.
The lots in those older subdivisions without local ordinance, only came to be legally separate lots where they have been conveyed and held under separate ownership. Any adjoining lots remaining from those older subdivisions which have been held under same and continuous ownership, cannot be conveyed separately today. They do not exist in the eyes of the courts.

Bottom line is the courts have ruled that up until the date (1929)the state enacted laws requiring that counties and cities regulate the design of subdivisions, those earlier subdivision maps did not actually create subdivisions due to the lack of agency oversight of design.

interesting but true.

For those interested, read "Gardner v Sonoma Co", "Witt Home Ranch v Sonoma Co" & "Abernathy Valley v Solano Co" for the case law on this.

Filing Final Plat Creates A Lot / Parcel In Pennsylvania

From the Pennsylvania Municipalities Planning Code, Act of 1968, P.L.805, No.247 as reenacted and amended.

"“Lot,” a designated parcel, tract or area of land established by a plat or otherwise as permitted by law and to be used, developed or built upon as a unit."

KEY ELEMENTS OF THE MPC

"When an application for approval of a plat, whether preliminary or final, has been approved without conditions or approved by the applicant’s acceptance of conditions, no subsequent change or amendment in the zoning, subdivision or other governing ordinance or plan shall be applied to affect adversely the right of the applicant to commence and to complete any aspect of the approved development in accordance with the terms of such approval within five years from such approval."

"Where the landowner has substantially completed the required improvements as depicted upon the final plat within the afore said five-year limit, or any extension thereof as may be granted by the governing body, no change of municipal ordinance or plan enacted subsequent to the date of filing of the preliminary plat shall modify or revoke any aspect of the approved final plat pertaining to zoning classification or density, lot, building, street or utility location."

"Section 513. Recording Plats and Deeds.
(a) Upon the approval of a final plat, the developer shall within 90 days of such final approval or 90 days after the date of delivery of an approved plat signed by the governing body, following completion of conditions imposed for such approval, whichever is later, record such plat in the office of the recorder of deeds of the
county in which the municipality is located. Whenever such plat approval is required by a municipality, the recorder of deeds of the county shall not accept any plat for recording, unless such plat officially notes the approval of the governing body and review by the county planning agency, if one exists."

"Section 514. Effect of Plat Approval on Official Map. After a plat has been approved and recorded as provided in this article, all streets and public grounds on such plat shall be, and become a part of the official map of the municipality without public hearing."

That pretty much covers it all.

Over the years I have had to read parts of the MPC to municipal boards and governing bodies.

Paul in PA

In MA, they will create tax IDs and send out tax bills for greater value BUT

The lots are not legally created until the first one is conveyed.

They are in a state of limbo until then.

What would stop you from re-subdividing the land?

What if you kept it all together and used it as one big lot?

What if you never constructed the improvements (road, utilities etc) and could not convey a lot, would it actually be a separate lot? No.

Do you have an expiration on the approval? Again, in MA, if you file a definitive subdivision, you have 8 years of protection from the endorsement date. If the zoning changes in that 8 year period and you don't build the improvements, then your subdivision is void. Oh sorry, your subdivision is fine, go ahead, build the road, convey the lots and tell every buyer 'Good luck getting a building permit".

Cannot Build In Streets On The Official Map

So you would have to undo the subdivision somehow.

The road right of ways do not become a public road until improved and accepted by the municipality.

However an adjacent landowner might improve the offered road dedication for access to other lands.

Paul in PA

Cannot Build In Streets On The Official Map

our roads typically remain private

lots can be conveyed and built upon if the road is bonded. if someone completes a home and needs the road, then they can petition the town to either urge the developer to complete the road or complete it themselves with the funds available.

typically developers will complete some of the road - utilities and binder course, then keep part of the bond in the bank while construction occurs. Once the lots are built out, they will add the finish course, have the surveyor set monuments, add the required trees and seed. Then the developer can get their bond back.

it is important to note that i work in an almost fully developed area with a powerful regional commission. any subdivision with 30 acres or 30 lots is referred to this regional commission for 'review'. they have some real overbearing regulations and anyone who can avoid their review does.

Wow, that is old school. In California under the current version of the Subdivision Map Act the lots are created as soon as the map is filed.

Under previous versions (I think before 1930) the map did not create lots, a Deed conveyance was required. The map was just a description, in effect. We have some recent appellate decisions that confirm old lots don't exist legally if they were never deeded by reference to the map.