Oh you could count on everybody attending a 4 hour MTS class and falling asleep and waking up with drool running down your shirt.
I've never been to an MTS class that was worth the time. Alabama finally did away with that requirement, and I agree that the good folks in Alabama do a much better job with seminars than their counterparts in Georgia. I'll be at the North Dakota fall seminar for the next couple of days, looks like a good one with some NGS folks presenting.
Back to the topic - surveying requires a unique person: a combination of scientist, mathematician, philosopher, outdoorsman, curmudgeon, scholar, educator, geologist, negotiator, researcher, etc., willing to work hard and get dirty in Southeastern summers or Northwestern winters, and do what it takes to get the job done right. There are some fine examples of that sort of person frequenting this board.?ÿ
It's been said that a good manager is always training his replacement. We as surveyors need to be on the lookout for those promising youngsters that we can develop to replace us. (That's how I got here.) I've been pleasantly surprised by some and greatly disappointed by others.
Education is essential. There's more than one way to get it, and if I could do it over I would get that college degree as a foundation. But the day I quit learning is the day I hang it up.
I can??t seem to fnd any help that has any education in land surveying. Plenty of applicants. But I want to hire someone who is interested in working toward a PLS, good pay, opportunity for advancement, and benefits. But these people are hard to find. So from my perspective, I do see a shortage.?ÿ
I don't think we underpay in this market (around $18/hour to start with no experience or survey education; low $20's/hour with a degree, crew chief LSITs in their mid to late 20's with a degree and four -six?ÿ years experience getting ready to sit for the PLS making $60,000+) and we still can't find decent employees, especially with a educational background in surveying.?ÿ I've had to hire guys with surveying degrees from Europe, Australia, etc. or "convert' guys with degrees in environmental science, engineering, etc. just to get staff with post-secondary education.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ
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That's right in line with what I am looking to pay.
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Every business, not just surveyors, but especially surveyors would benefit from business classes and lots of them.
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I agree with that.?ÿ I wish I had sought out more training about running a business when I was younger.
?ÿ
"Well dammit we know how to survey, at least most of us, we don't need more classes teaching us how to interpret a deed from preacher man Jeff Lucas."
By my observation, most of us think we know how to survey better than we actually do, especially when it comes to boundary.?ÿ A lot of folks, particularly in states that require CEUs and a good portion of the audience is there only to log the hours and is resentful for the requirement, tend to tune Jeff out because they don't like his speaking style at all.
That's unfortunate, because he usually speaks about the portion of boundary surveying that is most neglected within our profession, but which is most important to locate the true location of the boundary and come to the result that is most likely to withstand court scrutiny.
An alarmingly high percentage of surveyors think performing a boundary survey = read the deed + do the math + stake the corners.?ÿ
The reason that Jeff's topics are in the category of "tired old subjects" for some is that they are lessons that need to be taught over and over again because so many of our college/university programs and so many of our surveying organizations are training their students and employees that a boundary survey is more or less just a simple form of engineering problem.
Most of us know how to measure, and most of us know how to calculate.?ÿ Even in the areas of practice where I'm confident that I know well more than the average surveyor, there is so much more for me to learn that I expect the learning will continue even into retirement.?ÿ For these topics, I often enjoy going to others' presentations to get a perspective that differs from my own, or because they may have some recent info I haven't yet come across.?ÿ I sat in on one such presentation 2 or 3 years ago where a professor from one of the State Colleges was teaching about the use a certain type of evidence.?ÿ He got it so wrong that I was happy to get on the schedule for the next conference and have a chance to correct most of the misinformation.
Some of the topics you might consider old hat might also be some that contains a good deal of new material for me, and/or for many others.?ÿ
In spite of the dire predictions of our dwindling profession, there are new people entering it and many of them are eager to learn.?ÿ What is familiar to me (none of it is old hat) is brand new to many of them.?ÿ There are also quite a few surveyors like me, who go through nearly half a career and then find that something they thought they knew quite well is far more complex (and interesting) than their previous training led them to believe.
A certain specific presentation may get old although it may have good info and was interesting the first time, or maybe even couple of times you see it when the people lining up speakers for the conference start relying filling in holes in the schedule with the same speaker presenting the same topic year in and year out.
Other than that, I'm glad that aspects of the same areas of practice get talked about year in and year out.?ÿ If that weren't the case, then our conferences would be little more than thinly veiled sales demos.?ÿ Even though there may be some really neat new gizmos on the market to measure, calculate, and map in new and innovative ways, I'd get really bored with presentations like that really quickly.
I agree that sessions related to running a business?ÿand on project or employee management should be a significant part of each year's conference.
?ÿ
Back to the original topic, regarding a supposed surveyor shortage, I don't believe it.?ÿ The shortage is in the patience of much of our clientele.?ÿ We recently went through several years in which most of us were having trouble finding enough work to stay in business, and during which many left the survey profession altogether to find something that provides a steadier income year in and year out.
When I first entered the work force, many companies would keep at least their best and most reliable busy even if it was on non-billable work through slow seasons and shorter recessions.?ÿ Lay offs were minimal because they were bad for moral and because you might not be able to get some of the employees back that you'd rather not lose.
Increasingly from the mid or late 80s and through the 90s, companies would start laying people off at the start of any slowdown in business, regardless of the foreseeable length of the slowdown and sometimes regardless of the quality of the employee.?ÿ Nothing billable to send the crew on this week, tell them not to come in.?ÿ The bigger, multi-firm companies tended to look at field personnel in much the same light as rental equipment.?ÿ No particular recognition of quality or demonstrated loyalty.?ÿ As long as the equipment is designed (or the employee trained) to do the same job, any is as good as the next.?ÿ All too often, employees, particularly field employees are left hanging in this pseudo layoff limbo for several weeks before being fully laid off.
With advances in equipment, it takes fewer to get more done.?ÿ When and where I started surveying, we were using transits or theodolites and dragging chain (tape).?ÿ With that equipment, it's difficult to get anything done with fewer than 3 on the crew.?ÿ 4 or 5 on a crew was common, depending upon the terrain and task.?ÿ We've advanced so much with the equipment that in many cases, 1 can get as much or more done in a day than 4 or 5 could have with the more analog equipment.
So people fret about the dwindling numbers in the surveying profession.?ÿ Well golly gee, why would anyone be surprised in the slightest at that.?ÿ
People also wring their hands over the rising average age of licensed surveyors.?ÿ 15 years ago, it was something like 50 years old and now it's about 57.?ÿ Is that surprising considering the attrition that tends to take mostly the younger, unlicensed to other occupations in slow periods??ÿ Is it surprising when we consider that there is virtually no opportunity for on the job training when we field 1-person crews??ÿ Or when you consider that the entry level position and the first 3 visible steps in career advancement?ÿare essentially eliminated when there is only 1 person on a crew?
When you lose the unlicensed techs, there are fewer in the pipeline being trained.?ÿ When I think back to my early days of surveying in the early to mid 80s, it seemed like the average age of licensees had to have been pretty close to 50.
I would guess the average age of someone taking up surveying as a career to be about the mid 20s.?ÿ Depending on the State, you need between 6 and 12 years combined education and/or experience to take the licensing exam.?ÿ?ÿMost have at least a couple of years more time actually working (or combined education & experience) before applying or being approved to take the exam.?ÿ So assume someone enters surveying at 25, is approved to take the exam at 35, and passes at 36.?ÿ Is that much different than it would have been 20 or 30 years ago??ÿ Probably not.
At the other end (the seasoned surveyors), people are both living longer and working to later in life than they did on average when I entered the workforce.?ÿ It's not all that uncommon that some are still not fully retired by the time their in their mid 70s.?ÿ Many, even after retirement, keep their licenses active "just in case I want to take on an occasional survey", or simply as a matter of pride in the accomplishment of having attained and worked under their license for several decades.?ÿ If we were to remove the retired and semi-retired licensees from the numbers, I'd bet the average age would get back pretty close to 50.
I don't see the diminishing numbers and rising average age being?ÿsigns of a dying profession, but rather signs of a changing profession.?ÿ There are areas of practice which will change drastically or mostly fade away (construction, certain types of mapping), and the profession will need to adjust to a new role in those areas.?ÿ In other areas, we may need to consider how our role should expand.?ÿ And with the advances in measurement and mapping technology comes the opportunity for those trained to push the buttons or move the joystick to make the gizmo fly, float, measure, or plot, but not trained as to the basic sciences of measuring, mapping, data usage & analysis, or error theory to really screw things up with that new tech.
In much of that, surveyors by and large are on the slow end of incorporating the technology into our work, but we are best suited by training to be the experts in its use and in providing and managing precise and accurate data.?ÿ We're at an age where technological advance happens so fast that many of us are dinosaurs relative to the newer tools, but our knowledge of knowing what should be measured, ensuring that high quality data is collected, and ensuring accurate results from the use of the data is still highly relevant.?ÿ That knowledge will always be of utmost importance, regardless of the advances in technology.
Evan
That was a excellent post.?ÿ
The only thing I feel like I should correct is that I did not mean to imply that Preacher Man Jeff Lucas is a tired and wore out speaker. I actually like Jeff and have been to quite a few of his seminars. Suprisingly I am one of the few who has challenged him in the seminars. It gets pugilistic at time and quite entertaining when I tell him "your full of it".
What I was "complaining" about was the way the tendacy is to not even offer CEU's or PDH's unless they are strictly about surveying.
Why not offer something on Account Receivable & Payable, OR How to Calculate Your True Costs of Doing Business, OR how to set up a Sinking Fund for equipment replacement, OR How to Determine Profit and Loss. The list could go on and on but instead we have bullshit MTS Classes by the same people year after year. Or we have a NGS Seminar about CORS Stations or............you get the point.
Steven
In this area I can expect about 1/2 of the surveyors to be dead or retired in 10 years.?ÿ The other half will be dead or retired in the following 10 years.?ÿ It will leave myself and a couple others who are now in our 40's for an area with several dozen surveyors.?ÿ I will be 62 in 20 years (scary thought) and I will be eyeing retirement.
We do some minor engineering and we are watching the contractors' fees skyrocket.?ÿ Sewer is being installed everywhere and they are pushing towards pumps...?ÿ They buy the E-One in bulk for somewhere between 4-5k.?ÿ It retails for 7,500 and they sell it for 15k.?ÿ Now that is business savvy.?ÿ Do we have anything in our profession with a greater than 100% markup??ÿ Stakes??ÿ We have clients with experience of underpriced surveys who are shocked when they receive a proposal for a survey at something closer to the right fee.?ÿ They then find someone who will do "the same" for less.?ÿ You can get to the destination in a Yugo so why pay for the Rolls??ÿ Unfortunately, they don't see the rust under the Yugo and the liability is really on the cost effective surveyor...?ÿ And that is even if a mistake comes back to bite them.
What we really need is to understand the value of the services we provide.?ÿ We need to charge rates to provide quality services.?ÿ Nothing like underbidding then cutting corners...?ÿ then recording a survey that does not match the monuments or the plans in the area.
In this area I can expect about 1/2 of the surveyors to be dead or retired in 10 years.?ÿ The other half will be dead or retired in the following 10 years.?ÿ It will leave myself and a couple others who are now in our 40's for an area with several dozen surveyors.?ÿ I will be 62 in 20 years (scary thought) and I will be eyeing retirement.
We do some minor engineering and we are watching the contractors' fees skyrocket.?ÿ Sewer is being installed everywhere and they are pushing towards pumps...?ÿ They buy the E-One in bulk for somewhere between 4-5k.?ÿ It retails for 7,500 and they sell it for 15k.?ÿ Now that is business savvy.?ÿ Do we have anything in our profession with a greater than 100% markup??ÿ Stakes??ÿ We have clients with experience of underpriced surveys who are shocked when they receive a proposal for a survey at something closer to the right fee.?ÿ They then find someone who will do "the same" for less.?ÿ You can get to the destination in a Yugo so why pay for the Rolls??ÿ Unfortunately, they don't see the rust under the Yugo and the liability is really on the cost effective surveyor...?ÿ And that is even if a mistake comes back to bite them.
What we really need is to understand the value of the services we provide.?ÿ We need to charge rates to provide quality services.?ÿ Nothing like underbidding then cutting corners...?ÿ then recording a survey that does not match the monuments or the plans in the area.
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I have no clue what an E-One is but I will tell you that almost every single time I truly try to price it as it really costs I loose. What I am referring to is the hourly rates, IF I truly use the hourly rates to determine a fee to perform a job I can all but guarantee I will be roundly ignored. Hourly rates don't mean squat and I wish all surveyors would stop the BS with the hourly rate nonsense because they do not use them and never will. Oh they will tell you that their rates are $150 hour but that is bull and when you call them on it they will put a bunch of qualifiers and caveats for their use.
As for the number of surveyors??????it is probably the same thing around here where half are in their mid-70??s or older and still going strong and they are still the low-price leaders offering up cut-rate fee??s. They have been surveying for so long that they have a competitive advantage over most everyone else and they offer up cut-rate prices and the only way you will ever ??beat them? is to go low. That is a fact and for all you people out there saying otherwise you are living a charmed life.
Incidentally I will be 62 in 10 years and I just hope to be able to get there in one piece with my sanity intact. I still would never recommend surveying to anyone, not even my worst enemy (if I had one). I still discourage everyone from pursuing surveying as a career and will continue to do so as long as entry level pay for a cart pusher at Wal-Mart makes more money than an entry level surveying position.
I do not ever see surveyors ever valuing the service they provide & quite the contrary, and if you go to the Samgog.org message board you can read a post lamenting the higher fees because of some mythical shortage.
I wish I could live in a time and place where surveyors had high fees and valued their service, but I do not, and I doubt I will ever see it.
I say a shortage does not exist, but one is desperately needed to bring value to a profession that does not value itself.
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I've been at this for almost 40 years, after getting quite a late start due to chronic indecisiveness in my youth - and now I can truly say I'm sorry I finally decided on surveying as a lifestyle.?ÿ It's -1 outside with the wind, and my creaky old fat ass is staying right in here by the fire.
The low-pay-lament has been going on as long as I've been at it, and everybody talks tough until there's a correction in the markets, then the fees drop back to keep the lights on, and catch up takes years.
I too would never recommend surveying as a career path - unless it's gov't service with a guaranteed pension plan - and you want to be part of a bureaucracy...
SS
P.S. - here's my retirement plan:
An E One is a sewer pump.?ÿ They list for 7,500 and the contractors charge 15k plus installation.?ÿ?ÿ
We buy stakes for about 0.70-0.90 and charge 2.00 plus installation.?ÿ If I had a project with 1,000 stakes, then we'd be talking apples and apples.?ÿ Though it takes them an hour to set a pump and how many days would it take for 1000 stakes?
I foresee the shortage of surveyors.?ÿ We need to change the fees to pay the kids to attract the talent.?ÿ I completely agree that I would not recommend surveying with the current downward salary trend.?ÿ We will continue to get the less educated and therefore we will continue to erode at the appearance of the profession.
Take a look at the workshops/classes offered in at the Pennsylvania conference in January. A mixture of many topics, including business principles, etc.?ÿ
John,
You going to the conference in Hershey??ÿ I'll probably be there.?ÿ
John - that is all well and good, but can you accept PDH's for the business (marketing) topics??ÿ My understanding was that you can't.?ÿ This is from 4.5(b) of the "Continuing Education Provisions":
"Continuing professional competency obtained by a licensee should maintain, improve or expand skills and knowledge obtained prior
to initial licensure, including law and ethics applicable to the profession, or develop new and relevant skills and knowledge. No credit shall be given for a course in practice building or office management."
That last sentence sure makes it sound like you can't, and in PA you won't know that you don't have valid CE's until you get audited and they tell you they don't count.?ÿ I personally think business management should be included as acceptable CE's.
My main concern when computing my fee is the amount for liability.
That can not be done in quoting an hourly fee.
Well......it can if you are true to the hourly fee but I have never met anyone who was. I mean if the liability for the job does not agree with hourly fee then you need to raise the rate. If your rates are done properly they should have all of your associated costs of doing business (direct employee costs, insurance, equipment, incidentals such as gas and repairs, rent, utilities, etc. etc.) plus a profit margin built into them. But people don't use the rates they claim to have and it is just a talking point to allow them to puff out their chest.?ÿ
In the words of a wealthy client:?ÿ You cannot get rich working hourly.
I don't need to be rich, I want to be comfortable.
??Among the rich you will never find a really generous man even by accident. They may give their money away, but they will never give themselves away; they are egotistic, secretive, dry as old bones. To be smart enough to get all that money you must be dull enough to want it.??ÿ
???ÿG.K. Chesterton
