A kindergarten teacher has to go to school to learn how to teach, but a college professor doesn't.?ÿ This is absolutely absurd to me.?ÿ
It would only seem absurd if you haven't been to a college of education in the past ten years.?ÿ The copy and past below was taken directly from Yale's Education Studies.?ÿ It is in no way an outlier.?ÿ Pull up any college in the US and you'll see similar classes.?ÿ They are not teaching how to teach in colleges of education anymore.?ÿ I would much prefer that someone who has studied math teach my child math than someone who graduated from Yale's teaching program.
I'm not alone in noticing that the easiest degree in any college is in education.?ÿ Part of the reason is the lack of any substantive learning to test.?ÿ The requirement to hold a teaching degree or get a certificate from a teaching college is one of the worst things that has happened to education in America.?ÿ?ÿ
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EDST 177/PHIL 177/CGSC 277/EPE 494?ÿPropaganda, Ideology and Democracy (fall)
EDST 205?ÿPrinciples of Effective Teaching in the Secondary Classroom (spring)
EDST 209/WGSS 202/ER&M 292/AMST 461/AFAM 239?ÿIdentity, Diversity, and Policy in U.S. Education (fall)
EDST 211?ÿLatinx Communities and US Education (fall)
EDST 217/HIST 140J?ÿHistory of American Education (fall)
EDST 223 / PSLC 223?ÿLearning Democracy: Civic Education (fall)
EDST 225?ÿChild Care, Society, and Public Policy (spring)
EDST?ÿ230?ÿAmerican Education and the Law (spring)
EDST 235?ÿEducation and the Culture Wars (spring)
EDST 238 / PLSC 238?ÿThe Politics of Public Education (fall)
EDST 240 / SOCY 396?ÿCities, Suburbs and School Choice (spring)
EDST 241?ÿDisability Studies and Special Education (fall)
EDST S255/ANTH S324?ÿRace, Inequality, and Urban Education and Housing Policy (Summer)
EDST 255/ER&M?ÿEducation and Empire (fall)
EDST 263?ÿPlace, Race, and Memory in Schools (fall)
Right now professors don't really have to negotiate with their clients and I find it hard to believe that isn't part of the problem.
The problem is that we think of students as clients. They're not. Being accepted into a university program of study should be something that is earned by dint of demonstrated aptitude and hard work rather than ability to pay loads of tuition. The commercialization and commoditization of education has really messed things up.
What does that matter??ÿ Do you think schools are suddenly going to cut students a deal on tuition because they have demonstrated the qualities worthy of being there??ÿ And it doesn't make a lot of sense to me how you can suggest filtering potential students by hard work and aptitude and then turn around and say you don't want to live around dumb people.?ÿ I don't think you can have it both ways.
Based on my experience in school it seemed the professors didn't care if they lectured idiots or geniuses since the difficulty of the material would naturally filter out those who didn't have the drive and aptitude to be there.?ÿ My concern with the student loan program is that it gives schools a blank check which they then abuse.?ÿ I'd like to think that if the student loan program went away that schools would have to negotiate with the students on tuition, or starve.
I'll also point out that before anyone says "Well, that'll just make it so only rich people can afford a higher education like was the case 500 years ago..." that situation never actually went away since ivy league schools are still going strong and still unaffordable for 99% of Americans.
I certainly want to live among smart and educated people rather than dumb and ignorant people. If that makes me "elitist", so be it.
I agree the attitude of too many people now does not value education, knowledge, and logical thinking.
This is typified by "I did my own research on the web" by finding a couple articles written by unqualified people and believing they are now experts.
A kindergarten teacher has to go to school to learn how to teach, but a college professor doesn't.?ÿ This is absolutely absurd to me.?ÿ
It would only seem absurd if you haven't been to a college of education in the past ten years.?ÿ The copy and past below was taken directly from Yale's Education Studies.?ÿ It is in no way an outlier.?ÿ Pull up any college in the US and you'll see similar classes.?ÿ They are not teaching how to teach in colleges of education anymore.?ÿ I would much prefer that someone who has studied math teach my child math than someone who graduated from Yale's teaching program.
I'm not alone in noticing that the easiest degree in any college is in education.?ÿ Part of the reason is the lack of any substantive learning to test.?ÿ The requirement to hold a teaching degree or get a certificate from a teaching college is one of the worst things that has happened to education in America.?ÿ?ÿ
?ÿ
EDST 177/PHIL 177/CGSC 277/EPE 494?ÿPropaganda, Ideology and Democracy (fall)
EDST 205?ÿPrinciples of Effective Teaching in the Secondary Classroom (spring)
EDST 209/WGSS 202/ER&M 292/AMST 461/AFAM 239?ÿIdentity, Diversity, and Policy in U.S. Education (fall)
EDST 211?ÿLatinx Communities and US Education (fall)
EDST 217/HIST 140J?ÿHistory of American Education (fall)
EDST 223 / PSLC 223?ÿLearning Democracy: Civic Education (fall)
EDST 225?ÿChild Care, Society, and Public Policy (spring)
EDST?ÿ230?ÿAmerican Education and the Law (spring)
EDST 235?ÿEducation and the Culture Wars (spring)
EDST 238 / PLSC 238?ÿThe Politics of Public Education (fall)
EDST 240 / SOCY 396?ÿCities, Suburbs and School Choice (spring)
EDST 241?ÿDisability Studies and Special Education (fall)
EDST S255/ANTH S324?ÿRace, Inequality, and Urban Education and Housing Policy (Summer)
EDST 255/ER&M?ÿEducation and Empire (fall)
EDST 263?ÿPlace, Race, and Memory in Schools (fall)
Nope. Yale does not offer a bachelor's degree in education. Only some interdisciplinary certificates (not teacher's certificates) designed to get the ball rolling for folks who might otherwise not have gone into teaching. Folks who get that additional cert on their transcript still have to go through any state-required curriculum and pass board exams to get a teaching license.
So that's not a list of courses required to get an education studies degree, it is two lists of elective courses. Students pick one elective from each of the two categories.
Which is misleading in the extreme. I have a half dozen family members in education, from my grandparents to my wife, most of whom hold a bachelor's and/or a master's in education. They didn't cruise their courses, the vast majority of which were in actual subject matter (chemistry, history, algebra, precalc, language, etc.) and education-specific (Assessment of Learning, Literacy Development, Adapting Curricula for Students with Disabilities, Classroom Management etc.)
Most of those family members get understandably annoyed and/or depressed at the tendency of folks to paint what they have gone through and do - and by extension who they are - as trivial. Everyone complains about the lack of teachers, but then in the next breath denigrates all teachers as worthless and incompetent.?ÿOf course there's a shortage of teachers.
I'm curious what other sort of vetting you would recommend for teachers.
I would much prefer that someone who has studied math teach my child math than someone who graduated from Yale's teaching program.
We could hope for a balance. No one should teach a subject if they are not knowledgeable about it at or above the level of the course.
But a math degree alone does not prove they can communicate it effectively to students of varying levels of interest and ability.
I'd rather a high school math teacher had been through some appropriate courses about how people learn, than have studied math far beyond the level they are teaching.
But a math degree alone does not prove they can communicate it effectively to students of varying levels of interest and ability.
In seventh grade math I got 2 C's and 2 D's for my quarter grades, a D on the final, so a D for the year.
In eighth grade math it was 2 A's, 2 B's, an A on the final...and A for the year.?ÿ
I suspect there was precious little difference in math knowledge between the two instructors, nor did I suddenly gain the ability to comprehend math over the summer, one just knew how to teach "me" better
I took algebra Freshman year of HS. I did okay but it got harder to comprehend.
Then Geometry, immediate reaction PICTURES this I can understand, couldn??t understand why almost everyone else hated geometry. It probably helped that the teacher was a cute 30 something young woman, kept my attention. Algebra teacher was an old crank but that wasn??t all of it. If I could understand the gibberish of letters, numbers and symbols that would help.
Within the K-12 education world is the thing known as the Praxis Test.?ÿ This is the method by which potential teachers and current teachers obtain certification to possibly teach classes in in the areas of the Praxis Tests they have successfully passed.?ÿ This is a bit like our licensing examinations in that one must pass this comprehensive knowledge test to move forward.
My wife was educated to be a family and consumer sciences teacher (home ec back in the day).?ÿ She did that for over 20 years.?ÿ Then we had a governor who started strangling public education financially and schools began cutting high school curricula that was not specifically on the list of what MUST be acquired to graduate.?ÿ Wood shop, music, etc. were being cut to the max.?ÿ She knew what was coming next.?ÿ She applied to take the Praxis Test to become certified to teach English and, also, the one to teach Social Studies.?ÿ She aced the Social Studies test on the first try.?ÿ It took three times to pass the English test.?ÿ She was moved into the middle school English Language Arts position in the Fall as that teacher was leaving for health reasons.?ÿ She loves what she does and says she wished she had been an English teacher all along.?ÿ I read through example tests she was provided and could understand why the Praxis Test was so challenging..
We had a neighbor boy who spent five years as an education major (and playing on the line on their football team) who gave up on his dream of being an English teacher because he could not pass the same Praxis Test my wife took.?ÿ He has the degree but can't be employed unless he can pass that examination.?ÿ I believe his mother told me he had failed five times.
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@dave-karoly It has been years ago, but I read an article about the system in Sweden which has free tuition.?ÿ The percentage of students still borrowing (living expenses) was commiserate with the U.S. rate of borrowing although total amount was about 2/3rds of what U.S. students borrowed.?ÿ That was at least a decade ago, so numbers may have changed.?ÿ Still not quite the level of "free" education a lot of folks are talking about with the current student loan forgiveness talks.
I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of drawing from other models, but some of these "better" models people suggest are also the ones that have made the decision for students by the time they are finishing up high school (some even in grade school) as to if they are even allowed to pursue a college degree.?ÿ Whereas in the U.S., there is a higher ed opportunity for basically anyone who chooses to try - it will cost them money to do so.
While every student won't get into an ivy league school, they can still get into debt at the regional university or even at the community college before either failing out or deciding for themselves that college isn't for them.?ÿ But a small number may find a passion for a subject and apply themselves more than they did in high school.?ÿ I'm not sure I would want to have a system that limits people before they have a chance to try.
What is the middle ground?
In a wealthy country such as the U.S. there should be no student debt and no medical debt. The wealthy hogs who gain most of the benefit from the ordinary person??s labor should pay for it.
If some people don??t have such debt or paid it off does not change the fact that it shouldn??t exist in the first place. I don??t have either and I have absolutely no beef with others who have been badly treated by the system getting theirs forgiven.
Bill hit on an excellent point.?ÿ There is a huge difference between KNOWING how to do what it is that you are to teach than TEACHING that into the mind of each student in your classes.?ÿ I survived 16 hours of university calculus and series/differential equations course work.?ÿ That does not mean I am capable of teaching Algebra to a Seventh Grader.?ÿ I could work every problem in the book blindfolded and with my hands tied behind my back but getting each student to comprehend those problems is a completely different task.?ÿ Especially teenagers whose minds are not focused on such mundane subjects.
@dave-karoly It has been years ago, but I read an article about the system in Sweden which has free tuition.?ÿ The percentage of students still borrowing (living expenses) was commiserate with the U.S. rate of borrowing although total amount was about 2/3rds of what U.S. students borrowed.?ÿ That was at least a decade ago, so numbers may have changed.?ÿ Still not quite the level of "free" education a lot of folks are talking about with the current student loan forgiveness talks.
I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of drawing from other models, but some of these "better" models people suggest are also the ones that have made the decision for students by the time they are finishing up high school (some even in grade school) as to if they are even allowed to pursue a college degree.?ÿ Whereas in the U.S., there is a higher ed opportunity for basically anyone who chooses to try - it will cost them money to do so.
While every student won't get into an ivy league school, they can still get into debt at the regional university or even at the community college before either failing out or deciding for themselves that college isn't for them.?ÿ But a small number may find a passion for a subject and apply themselves more than they did in high school.?ÿ I'm not sure I would want to have a system that limits people before they have a chance to try.
What is the middle ground?
In a wealthy country such as the U.S. there should be no student debt and no medical debt.
Ehh, I don't necessarily agree with this.?ÿ Life, death, and sickness are facts of life and I think it's largely futile to try to control that.?ÿ All the money in the world didn't stop steve jobs from taking a dirt nap, so I'm OK with medical care being treated as the luxury that it is.
I think education is a little different animal though.?ÿ It's in a nation's best interest to have an educated populace because it's the rising tide that lifts all boats.?ÿ I'm skeptical that government funding is the way to go about making that happen though, because like someone mentioned earlier-- some people just don't learn well in a classroom, or maybe don't have an interest in it anyway.?ÿ I think I'd rather have a path available for individuals to seek it out than another bloated and wasteful government program that a fraction of the population takes advantage of.
Living life is an education unto itself.?ÿ We don't get certificates to hang on the wall, though.
https://www.amazon.com/Really-Need-Know-Learned-Kindergarten/dp/034546639X
Nothing sticks in your mind more intensely than learning something for yourself.?ÿ Touching wet paint is more instructional than a sign warning you of its existence.
@rover83?ÿ
You're right, I just got to what I thought was the syllabus, but I stand corrected.?ÿ It was not my intent to mislead, I appreciate the push back.
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Life, death, and sickness are facts of life and I think it's largely futile to try to control that.?ÿ All the money in the world didn't stop steve jobs from taking a dirt nap, so I'm OK with medical care being treated as the luxury that it is.
There's a difference between providing standard medical services and attempting to extend lifespans to 150+ years. Providing those standard services such as preventative care saves the taxpayers money in the long run anyways, since right now people are waiting until easily fixed issues become expensive emergencies. It's no secret that we pay double what other developed nations do for worse care, and have the highest number of avoidable hospitalizations and deaths. Just like education, taking care of things up front improves quality of life for everyone.
I think education is a little different animal though.?ÿ It's in a nation's best interest to have an educated populace because it's the rising tide that lifts all boats.?ÿ I'm skeptical that government funding is the way to go about making that happen though, because like someone mentioned earlier-- some people just don't learn well in a classroom, or maybe don't have an interest in it anyway.?ÿ I think I'd rather have a path available for individuals to seek it out than another bloated and wasteful government program that a fraction of the population takes advantage of.
Maybe I wasn't clear earlier, but I am all in favor of tracked education. Put people into the right pipelines for certifications, trade school, higher education, whatever. Stop the fiction that everyone needs a degree, or no one does.
The framework should be hashed out by a combined public/private sector initiative, but ultimately the funding should come from the government, not private entities who can withhold funding for self-serving reasons. The bloat comes from not putting in the work up front to make it streamlined and efficient.
There's a difference between providing standard medical services and attempting to extend lifespans to 150+ years. Providing those standard services such as preventative care saves the taxpayers money in the long run anyways, since right now people are waiting until easily fixed issues become expensive emergencies.
Certainly.?ÿ But I have yet to hear of a single person being bankrupted by eye exams and teeth cleanings, or even mammograms and prostate exams.?ÿ When I hear talk of free healthcare I tend to interpret that as "I don't want to pay for my $300,000 hip replacement surgery".
The bloat comes from not putting in the work up front to make it streamlined and efficient.
How do you make it streamlined and efficient when you might have a million people enroll in the fall semester and 30 million the following spring??ÿ I think having to be prepared for the worst case scenario at all times is where the bloat comes from.
@dave-karoly Sweden's not exactly a slum compared to the US.?ÿ Canadian students have debt, Australian students have debt, even German students have debt (with news stories about the corona virus problem driving that number upwards).?ÿ All of these countries are well off countries with various forms of either 'free' or heavily subsidized education, yet students are still carrying debt upon graduation.?ÿ There are certainly some good ideas in those countries as to how to address the debt, beyond the idea of oh just forget about it, that should be investigated.
Not argumentative, serious question - If these forward thinking countries that we (US) are supposed to emulate still have student debt, how are we supposed to get to a no education debt system??ÿ It obviously would not be by only offering free tuition.
I'll also point out that before anyone says "Well, that'll just make it so only rich people can afford a higher education like was the case 500 years ago..." that situation never actually went away since ivy league schools are still going strong and still unaffordable for 99% of Americans.
That situation actually did go away by dint of government support of higher education (i.e agricultural and teacher colleges) which expanded to regional universities and then community and technical colleges began to spring up almost everywhere.?ÿ With the number of options out there, very few people have no option for an opportunity at some form of higher education.
One of the debt issues is the mistaken idea that "I" have to go to this prestigious school half a country away instead of my regional university an hour or two away.?ÿ Slight price tag difference between the two without even including the cost of living.?ÿ There are some cases to do so, but it is usually ego.?ÿ I almost made that financial mistake when I was applying to colleges 30+ years ago.?ÿ Same reason some people will spend $400 on a pair of tennis shoes that are not even as good as a $50 pair, but have a 'famous' person's name associated with them.
but I am all in favor of tracked education. Put people into the right pipelines for certifications, trade school, higher education, whatever. Stop the fiction that everyone needs a degree, or no one does.
The framework should be hashed out by a combined public/private sector initiative, but ultimately the funding should come from the government, not private entities who can withhold funding for self-serving reasons. The bloat comes from not putting in the work up front to make it streamlined and efficient.
1000%
This would make life easier.?ÿ
Following the money explains why they don't allow it. Derisive by nature, forcing classism and financial strain is a weapon of the ultra rich, and leaves less for them to have to share.
There are exceptions but it's a system the original immigration to the Continent was based upon ultimately..
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IMHO.
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And I'm not rich, nor ever will be and happy about that...
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@jon-payne they do have debt in those countries, but it is a matter of scale.Tuition at the top universities in those countries is10%-25% of the tuition of equal caliber universities in the U.S.?ÿ
The other issue is repayment conditions. The loan systems in those coutries are not a profit center for private buissiness and are run by the goverment. Some of them have no interest charges at all.?ÿ
But a math degree alone does not prove they can communicate it effectively to students of varying levels of interest and ability.
In seventh grade math I got 2 C's and 2 D's for my quarter grades, a D on the final, so a D for the year.
In eighth grade math it was 2 A's, 2 B's, an A on the final...and A for the year.?ÿ
I suspect there was precious little difference in math knowledge between the two instructors, nor did I suddenly gain the ability to comprehend math over the summer, one just knew how to teach "me" better
I do think teaching skill should be one of the criteria used in hiring professors, but there is a big difference between teaching a seventh grader and University.?ÿ
Teaching adults doesn't require in depth understanding of how children learn, because the brains of the professors and the students are much closer to the same level of development. Additionally, the level of subject matter knowledge required to teach at the University level is much higher, making a full education of education time prohibitive.?ÿ
I have taught University (mathematics) and was told I did a good job, but would never attempt to teach in a secondary (or lower) school.?ÿ