@dave-karoly Sweden's not exactly a slum compared to the US.?ÿ Canadian students have debt, Australian students have debt, even German students have debt (with news stories about the corona virus problem driving that number upwards).?ÿ All of these countries are well off countries with various forms of either 'free' or heavily subsidized education, yet students are still carrying debt upon graduation.?ÿ There are certainly some good ideas in those countries as to how to address the debt, beyond the idea of oh just forget about it, that should be investigated.
Not argumentative, serious question - If these forward thinking countries that we (US) are supposed to emulate still have student debt, how are we supposed to get to a no education debt system??ÿ It obviously would not be by only offering free tuition.
I'll also point out that before anyone says "Well, that'll just make it so only rich people can afford a higher education like was the case 500 years ago..." that situation never actually went away since ivy league schools are still going strong and still unaffordable for 99% of Americans.
That situation actually did go away by dint of government support of higher education (i.e agricultural and teacher colleges) which expanded to regional universities and then community and technical colleges began to spring up almost everywhere.?ÿ With the number of options out there, very few people have no option for an opportunity at some form of higher education.
One of the debt issues is the mistaken idea that "I" have to go to this prestigious school half a country away instead of my regional university an hour or two away.?ÿ Slight price tag difference between the two without even including the cost of living.?ÿ There are some cases to do so, but it is usually ego.?ÿ I almost made that financial mistake when I was applying to colleges 30+ years ago.?ÿ Same reason some people will spend $400 on a pair of tennis shoes that are not even as good as a $50 pair, but have a 'famous' person's name associated with them.
but I am all in favor of tracked education. Put people into the right pipelines for certifications, trade school, higher education, whatever. Stop the fiction that everyone needs a degree, or no one does.
The framework should be hashed out by a combined public/private sector initiative, but ultimately the funding should come from the government, not private entities who can withhold funding for self-serving reasons. The bloat comes from not putting in the work up front to make it streamlined and efficient.
1000%
This would make life easier.?ÿ
Following the money explains why they don't allow it. Derisive by nature, forcing classism and financial strain is a weapon of the ultra rich, and leaves less for them to have to share.
There are exceptions but it's a system the original immigration to the Continent was based upon ultimately..
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IMHO.
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And I'm not rich, nor ever will be and happy about that...
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@jon-payne they do have debt in those countries, but it is a matter of scale.Tuition at the top universities in those countries is10%-25% of the tuition of equal caliber universities in the U.S.?ÿ
The other issue is repayment conditions. The loan systems in those coutries are not a profit center for private buissiness and are run by the goverment. Some of them have no interest charges at all.?ÿ
But a math degree alone does not prove they can communicate it effectively to students of varying levels of interest and ability.
In seventh grade math I got 2 C's and 2 D's for my quarter grades, a D on the final, so a D for the year.
In eighth grade math it was 2 A's, 2 B's, an A on the final...and A for the year.?ÿ
I suspect there was precious little difference in math knowledge between the two instructors, nor did I suddenly gain the ability to comprehend math over the summer, one just knew how to teach "me" better
I do think teaching skill should be one of the criteria used in hiring professors, but there is a big difference between teaching a seventh grader and University.?ÿ
Teaching adults doesn't require in depth understanding of how children learn, because the brains of the professors and the students are much closer to the same level of development. Additionally, the level of subject matter knowledge required to teach at the University level is much higher, making a full education of education time prohibitive.?ÿ
I have taught University (mathematics) and was told I did a good job, but would never attempt to teach in a secondary (or lower) school.?ÿ
But a math degree alone does not prove they can communicate it effectively to students of varying levels of interest and ability.
In seventh grade math I got 2 C's and 2 D's for my quarter grades, a D on the final, so a D for the year.
In eighth grade math it was 2 A's, 2 B's, an A on the final...and A for the year.?ÿ
I suspect there was precious little difference in math knowledge between the two instructors, nor did I suddenly gain the ability to comprehend math over the summer, one just knew how to teach "me" better
I do think teaching skill should be one of the criteria used in hiring professors, but there is a big difference between teaching a seventh grader and University.?ÿ
Teaching adults doesn't require in depth understanding of how children learn, because the brains of the professors and the students are much closer to the same level of development. Also a proffesor doesnt need to deal with disciplinary issues, and kids who are forced to be learning agaisnt their will, or be responsible for recognizing signs of child abuse.?ÿ
Additionally, the level of subject matter knowledge required to teach at the University level is much higher, making a full education of education time prohibitive.?ÿ
I have taught University (mathematics) and was told I did a good job, but would never attempt to teach in a secondary (or lower) school.?ÿ
Just read this article yesterday in my State Associations publication.
https://umaine.edu/svt/wp-content/uploads/sites/105/2022/02/TOP03.pdf
Dr. Hermansen makes some good points, but I think most of us agree that the four year programs are not producing graduates who have the skills to start signing surveys.?ÿ
We are not in a vacuum. Other coutries have tackled the problem of repeating the same same 3 months of experience over and over again in a variety of ways. One way is a formal articulation period with licensed surveyor with. https://www.alsa.ab.ca/Protecting-the-Public/Registration-as-an-Alberta-Land-Surveyor/Articling-Pupils
@aliquot Yes.?ÿ As I pointed out, these are countries with 'free' or very heavily subsidized/regulated tuition rates.?ÿ I'm aware the tuition cost is significantly less in most of those countries.?ÿ But the scale of the debt problem doesn't seem to be as vast as might be expected.?ÿ Multiple articles show the same, but just one I pulled up (I'm sure numbers have changed since the article, but they are a comparison at the time):
- average US student debt for a bachelors degree - $28K
- average Sweden student debt - $21K
- average Britain student debt - $60K (I think the article is a little high on this one. several other sources say about $55K)
- average Australia student debt - $23.5K
So obviously the debt is not only from tuition.?ÿ It is for living expenses as well (which are often balled up as a package at US universities).
As I had already posted, I agree that there are many countries that have some good ideas about how to address the debt.?ÿ One of the more prevalent is an income based repayment schedule (something already available to US students).?ÿ This is touted in many articles when it comes to other countries doing things "better", yet when the US version is discussed the key take away is how difficult it is to figure out the paperwork for this option.?ÿ So some simplified paperwork might help the student debt problem out significantly by reducing defaults and cutting back increased debt based on interest accruing.
There are other EU options which leave much less or no debt.?ÿ But again - some of those options limit people (even by elementary school age).?ÿ I don't support the idea that we provide something free to some people by removing it's availability to others.?ÿ In an earlier post, someone hit on the idea of class stratification.?ÿ Education is a huge tool for change when it comes to moving socioeconomic class upward.?ÿ How well one does in school (and likelihood to graduate college) is heavily influenced by parent's level of educational achievement.?ÿ Remove the university option from one person at age 10 and you have limited it for that family for generations.?ÿ Debt taken on to get the education can also be a huge negative for that family as well, so I am not suggesting we shouldn't look at options for helping students address their debt.
The average US student has student loan debt of around 30K.?ÿ That is a far cry from the sensational stories on outliers that report owing 200K+ in student loan debt.?ÿ Another article had a chart showing the student loan debt balances per student and only 5% of students had a debt greater than 100K.?ÿ Around 85% had debt of less than 50K.?ÿ The average student loan balance upon graduation is set up to be paid off in 10 years with a payment of $300?ñ dollars per month with the average bachelors degree holder having a starting salary of around $67K.?ÿ On average, the system doesn't sound too bad.?ÿ I'm not saying it couldn't be better.
Dr. Hermansen makes some good points, but I think most of us agree that the four year programs are not producing graduates who have the skills to start signing surveys.?ÿ
The comparisons to lawyers, pharmacists, doctors, etc... just doesn't fit for me.?ÿ A "graduate of an accredited surveying program" (assuming he means a bachelors program) is someone who has completed their 4-year degree in a surveying program (again making an assumption he means accredited by ABET).?ÿ Overall, universities are accredited institutionally as well.?ÿ These regional or national accrediting agencies set the basic curriculum for a 'well-rounded' university graduate which includes the traditional liberal arts education.?ÿ So of the 4 years the surveying graduate takes, about 2 of them will be general education.
Whereas the lawyer, doctor, pharmacist etc.. complete the undergraduate work and then go on to three to four (or more) years of additional classroom study which concentrates solely on their profession.?ÿ So saying they get licensed right after graduation is not even similar to suggesting a surveying graduate be licensed after graduation.?ÿ Essentially their depth of knowledge in the profession they are entering is gained in a classroom while the surveyors is gained on the job.
While the experience obtained surveying lots might (???) be repetitive after 3 months, the licensing boards are supposed to look at the claimed experience and make sure it shows professional growth.?ÿ Licensure is not just about the technical aspects of get the deed, plot the deed, solve potential issues using the cookie cutter provided.?ÿ I doubt three months of lot surveys has you minimally competent for running a business or client communications (or in my opinion lot surveys - meaning client interactions, research, field work, analysis, drafting, and compliance with local/state regulations!).
Over 40 years ago, a medical student could get their student loan debt wiped out completely by signing a contract to move to a city under some population level in the State and practice there for a minimum of five years.?ÿ That was a tremendous aid to small towns across the State.?ÿ Some stayed in those communities and some moved on at the first opportunity.?ÿ There are similar programs for various professions in various locations.
Now, if there was such a program for land surveyors.....................................
There is a discussion of this very topic on californiasurveyors.org and it's quite lengthy.
@jon-payne The biggest problem is the introduction of profit seeking finianal institutions and for profit schools.?ÿ
The $200,000 debts are not the norm, but they do exist.?ÿ
The extended repayment periods, income triggers, and low interest rates in other countries mean tax payers are wiling to foot much more of the bill to ensure and educated workforce in other coutries.?ÿ
It's pretty easy to say for-profit colleges or universities are the devil when I'm not a professor at one of them.?ÿ I'm sure if I was an instructor I'd want a shot at hauling truckloads of cash home just like everyone else in the world.?ÿ I don't think putting a cap on tuition will do much more than drive away the best teachers, but I do think the blank check that the government gives schools in the form of student loans should be dialed back somehow.
And the liberal arts requirements definitely need to go away.?ÿ I remember when I was in the survey program in Denver one of my requirements was a multi-cultural studies class-- I think the choices were african, asian, and native american.?ÿ Complete and utter waste of time and money, but there was no way around it.?ÿ If I'm in a STEM field I shouldn't be required to take any of that garbage, because all it does is contribute to the tuition bloat.
Over 40 years ago, a medical student could get their student loan debt wiped out completely by signing a contract to move to a city under some population level in the State and practice there for a minimum of five years.?ÿ That was a tremendous aid to small towns across the State.?ÿ Some stayed in those communities and some moved on at the first opportunity.?ÿ There are similar programs for various professions in various locations.
Now, if there was such a program for land surveyors.....................................
Have a friend doing that right now.?ÿ She has a 5 year deal with a VA hospital and it will wipe her student loans clean.?ÿ?ÿ
