We're looking at updating the career progression model to one which is actually progressive.?ÿ What kind of models are people using in their business??ÿ How do people move up each rung in terms of experience and certifications, licensure, etc.?
For reference, we're at municipality with only 4 people in the survey group and currently have the following progression from the bottom up:
-Survey Technician (minimal experience, no certifications, HS Diploma)
-Sr. Survey Technician (3+ yrs experience, no certifications, HS Diploma)
-Survey Party Chief (4+ yrs experience, at least 1 yr experience in supervisory position, no certs, HS Diploma)
-Chief Surveyor (PLS required, associates required)
Right now the only progression is via experience and/or attrition.?ÿ Anyone have good models which promote through various levels using experience, certifications, licensure, etc??ÿ What are the steps needed to progress to the next level??ÿ Anyone have an SIT position in the mix??ÿ Survey CAD Techs?
Drop the Technician title. With no experience or certs they can be an instrument person, the older term was Rodman, but technician implies skills and abilities. I'm a CST2 OF and was titled Engineering Technician Senior, as I was requ6ro have the CST 2 cert to keep my job.
Crew Chief is someone who has a good chunk of experience, anywhere from 3-5 years of post instrument person work and up. Sr crew chief is just adding pay to justify a title, I experienced that.?ÿ Project manager is a role that people that pass the FS and certification of LSIT, More often it's a PLS or LS because they're usually more experienced unless they're just a new stamp with a still drying diploma and not more than few years of actual field and similar work behind them.
that's my take on it after working in private and public, small and large organizations, and working my way up as a college graduated but no experience instrument person now rounding out my additional education and LSIT attained on my way to getting licensed.
ymmv.
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@jitterboogie I think some of the words used are obviously just semantics, especially when it comes to the tech / rodperson / instrument operator.?ÿ I'd expect a tech to know more than just operating the instrument, but I digress.?ÿ Unlicensed individuals seem hit the glass ceiling at Crew Chief.?ÿ I'm not in that situation, but from your experience were job hops required to get that jump from Crew Chief to Project Manager even with SIT status??ÿ?ÿ
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Our thought process (even though we don't have the numbers to fill all positions) was:
Tech levels 1-3 based on experience, knowledge, and/or certifications that people could move up without waiting for others to leave
Survey Project Manager - Licensure not required, could also combine LSIT with experience - management position
Project Surveyor - PLS w/ minimal licensure experience - Management Position
Chief Surveyor - PLS w/ 5+ yrs experience as licensed - Oversees all
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That way you could have plenty of levels of movement for people who are uninterested in licensure based on certifications, experience and knowledge.?ÿ But the path to licensure remains a carrot at the SIT and LS levels.
@jitterboogie I think some of the words used are obviously just semantics, especially when it comes to the tech / rodperson / instrument operator.?ÿ I'd expect a tech to know more than just operating the instrument, but I digress.?ÿ Unlicensed individuals seem hit the glass ceiling at Crew Chief.?ÿ I'm not in that situation, but from your experience were job hops required to get that jump from Crew Chief to Project Manager even with SIT status??ÿ?ÿ
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Our thought process (even though we don't have the numbers to fill all positions) was:
Tech levels 1-3 based on experience, knowledge, and/or certifications that people could move up without waiting for others to leave
Survey Project Manager - Licensure not required, could also combine LSIT with experience - management position
Project Surveyor - an LSIT with 5 years of field experience would be adequate esp with oversight from the PLS/Chief Surveyor?ÿ
?ÿ(good to have )PLS w/ minimal licensure experience - Management Position////maybe not management, if you have more than 2 it's a weird place to manage no one or too many chiefs not enot worker bees?ÿ
Chief Surveyor - PLS w/ 5+ yrs experience as licensed - Oversees all
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That way you could have plenty of levels of movement for people who are uninterested in licensure based on certifications, experience and knowledge.?ÿ But the path to licensure remains a carrot at the SIT and LS levels.
Depending on the size of the company, how many crews, and the availability of employees, I've had situations where the party chief was a bright college kid with just a couple summers' experience.
I don't know about where you are, but I don't see too many guys kicking around at the I-man or technician level for 3+ years, without bumping up to running a crew a lot sooner.
This is what my agency uses for the surveyor series.
https://www.calhr.ca.gov/state-hr-professionals/Pages/3029.aspx
Entry level requires a 4 year degree or an LSIT/EIT. Range D of the Transportation Surveyor classification requires a PLS.
For entry level, we use the Junior Engineering Technician (JET) classification (first level) or the Transportation Engineering Tech. Several of our JET hires the past few years have come in with surveying education/experience, but no LSIT. Once they pass the FS exam and our state board issues them a LSIT, they can take the Transportation Surveyor exam and complete for vacancies. Several have made that move less than two years after hiring on. In effect, we are growing out own surveyors to help with the shortage.
We have over 90 field crews statewide, plus all the office staff to support the survey program, so there is a big need and many opportunities.
1.?ÿ Do a bunch of limited scope surveying for an engineering/surveying firm
2.?ÿ Take some classes from your local community college (or online, I suppose).
3.?ÿ Like trig
4.?ÿ Read up on principles, practices of retracement, GNSS implementation, boundary control and liability that's sure to follow.
5.?ÿ Pass the (19 hours of) tests
6.?ÿ Get a stamp with your name on it and start figuring out how to actually do it (well) in your state.?ÿ This might include hanging out with other licensed surveyors and being a conscientious human being.?ÿ In my case, some of the figgering out will be done pro bono for several non-profits I believe in.?ÿ That relaxes the schedule (learning curve), reduces the possibility of making decisions by your servitude to the almighty Dollah and reduces the possibility of serious liability.
Boom.?ÿ Done.
I don't know about where you are, but I don't see too many guys kicking around at the I-man or technician level for 3+ years, without bumping up to running a crew a lot sooner.
I'd say about 25% do stay at that level around here, at least for 3-5 years.
Of the remaining 75% that do move up, maybe 25% of those were actually ready to be moved up...
Below is my general theory on a full-scale flowchart to field positions that considers well-accepted national (USA) certifications specific to surveying [did not ponder on things like Part 107 {drone pilot}, as things like these are too specialized to throw into the mix].
Field Track:
Survey Field Assistant or Crew Member 1 ?? no experience/education requirement (unless a minimum is required by employer).
Survey Field Assistant or Crew Member 2 ?? all above requirements WITH 6 months to 1 year experience in a similar or related field (Surveying/Utilities/Construction/Engineering/etc).
Survey Field Technician 1 ?? all above requirements WITH 1 year or greater survey field experience OR Associates/Bachelor??s degree in a related field with minimal experience.
Survey Field Technician 2 ?? all above requirements WITH 2 years verifiable COMPETENCY with equipment + CST 1 certification OR Associates/Bachelor??s degree in a related field + 1 year experience with equipment COMPETENCY.
Survey Crew Leader ?? all above requirements WITH 3-6 years field experience/verifiable PROFICIENCY with equipment + CST 2 certification OR Associates/Bachelor??s + 2 years field experience/verifiable PROFICIENCY.
Survey Crew Leader 2 ?? all above requirements WITH 7-10 years field experience + some CAD knowledge.
Sr. Survey Crew Leader ?? all above requirements WITH 10+ years field experience + some data processing knowledge.
PLS Field Surveyor ?? all above requirements + PLS license
Survey Field Coordinator (Selected by Survey Department Manager or other FigureHead) ?? Oversees all above positions + proficient in Data Processing.
LSIT (Field) ?? State LSI/SIT/LSIT certification at minimum {Place in above hierarchy depends on where they fit in skill levels/experience listed above}.
--Feel free to take ideas from this if it helps. The biggest concern I always have with the 'minimum experience' requirements (but what other methods are available that are equally fair to all individuals??) across the boards is that there are a ton of candidates out there with "10 years of experience" that when put to the test are still only on 3rd year of experience that they are retaking for the 7th time.
Best of luck!
The biggest concern I always have with the 'minimum experience' requirements (but what other methods are available that are equally fair to all individuals??) across the boards is that there are a ton of candidates out there with "10 years of experience" that when put to the test are still only on 3rd year of experience that they are retaking for the 7th time.
Amen. This is our biggest problem with new hires as well. If I had a nickel for every candidate who had one year of experience ten times, rather than ten years of experience, I'd be a rich man.
I keep on asking why we don't have some sort of evaluation either during the interview process (my preference) or during onboarding.
As both project surveyor and training coordinator, I need to know the areas in which someone is strong and the areas in which they need additional training and mentorship BEFORE they get handed any responsibility. It costs a lot of money to find out where a new hire is weak by them screwing up multiple times during their first six months' of employment.
I keep getting told that a simple evaluation would "scare candidates away". I'm stumped as to why that's a problem, since the ones that would be scared away would invariably be the ones that aren't confident in the abilities they claim to have on their resume.
The bigger problem is that it always falls to the folks who actually do have that 10+ years' worth of experience to fix those new-hire screwups, which starts them wondering why they have to clean up after someone who is getting paid as much as (or more than) them, which leads to them getting frustrated and possibly quitting. Gresham's Law can be applied to employees as well - bad employees drive out the good ones.
@rover83?ÿ
Agreed on the experience and testing them at the time of the interview - it would weed out a lot of headaches and candidates that put lipstick on a pig. I would not expect perfection out of a party chief or instrument operator but if all they know is boundary surveying then I surely don't want them doing construction staking or detailed topo/site feature locates the first few weeks out without some supervision.?ÿ
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The same goes with draftsmen/CAD techs for engineering or surveying. I've also seen people try to hire on individuals with experience in drafting for architectural or mechanical purposes only to be disappointed. it takes time and an eagerness to learn to build staff that serve the profession well. Then you have the struggle of trying to determine how to keep them - everybody has their reasons for loving or hating a work place, coworkers, the type of work being done or the client interactions that they're stuck dealing with occasionally
@rover83 This can be done easily. ?ÿI was hired in the 90??s no survey experience. Now I did have experience on reading slope stakes pulling in center line from a surveyors slopes stakes and laying pipe rcp on grade on construction side along with running heavy equipment. I had been going to college tech school and had a elementary surveying class under my belt along with engineering surveying and route surveying and manual drafting class. Most of the previous experience was before I graduated high school. Running scrapers dozers excavators sheeps foot rollers etc. when I hired on as a rodman/ what I really was a line cutting fool and stake driver and mule. I toted everything. After my first 30 days I asked how and what I needed to do in order to move up get i man experience etc. ?ÿwell first which my school helped was on my lunch hour and after work hours i took home copies of our field work and reduced the data adjusted traverse did calcs etc. this was stadia topo and total station work no data collector. I did that for a couple months. One day at lunch my boss who was the companies LS and in his 60??s said you are getting the notes down and the reduction part down. He said can you set up a transit. Of course I was 18 and said hell yeah. Well He gave me a fixed set of leggs and tribrach no optical plumit a plumb bob and dropped a quarter on the ground. He said set up and level over that quarter. I did who knows how freaking long it took me. Only those who started out with setting up with a plumb bob and fixed legs knows. Well it took me 30 days of my lunch hour weekends and evenings to to get that done in under 2 minutes. On flat and hillsides. Then he gave me tge spirit level target and taught me how to turn 90 180 etc . Same thing plumb bob fixed legs. I got that down and he said well get the T-1A out and set it up. Reverse on a tribrach and now modern legs. ?ÿI did all of this plus calcs reduced data until i got to the lietz 2bii. About 6 months and could set up that total station in less than a minute. I got a fat raise of 25 cents per hour was happier than a puppy with two xxxxx well you get the point. At the end of my first year he took me to meet another surveyor so he could hire me. He was retiring. I went to interview and about an hour of questions they handed me a hp 32s II and a set of field notes for levels. Said reduce these. I did. Then a set of plans profile and said calc grades and rod readings. I did. Compass rule adjustment 4 sided traverse. Calced and done. Then we went to lunch. And on drive back we stopped at a job site. He said see that pig pen I said yes sir. He said set up the gun over it and be ready for a backsight. I said yes sir. Never had used or saw a wild T1000 with a DI2002 distomat. I set up leveled and said i am up but how do you turn this thing on. He said you will do. I said sir. He said i can teach what buttons to push but if i am paying you to be a i man i want to know its not going to take you a month of Sundays to set up over a point. All of this can be done it has been done. Now I man today is not the same as it was. Even a crew chief today is not the same . It is changing back the where the crew chiefs are calculating more in the field but for most part its done for them. Ibtimed a guy today. Newbie 18 minutes to get up over a point. Not leveled electronically. Just fish eye bubble. I will be working with him as I tweak him a bit. I like the idea of testing. But I honestly will take anyone that wants to learn over someone with experience that refuses to get better or try something new. Good attitude will take someone further than knowledge with me.?ÿ
I was on a job recently helping a crew chief. Contractor asked for something. He told contractor i don??t have that data but office will get it to me tomorrow. I called office told boss to get the data for us and the lightbulb went off. I said wait a degnabit minute. I said why don??t we have what is needed. He said office does the calcs. I said not today. I am the project coordinator and we are doing them. To the truck. By the way the hoods are to high these days or i am shrinking. So tailgate it was. We went through it and all the ways we could make it work and check. Got job done told contractor he was good in that area. Ls is blowing up my phone as he wanted to get office support. I finally called him calmed him down and said we did this he said oh oh well that??s good. Do you need anything on my end. ?ÿI said yes sir stop texting me till tomorrow as I have to get the work done he laughed and said ok. Once he knew what i was using how i was using it and what it was for he was fine. He admitted that so much has been done on office side he forgot we can teach our crews to do some of it in field just as easy . Now by the next week i calced everything up this was a fire to put out and not the whole site. Office software made it much faster but we did it on site for a few points so contractor was on his way. These young chiefs want to learn they want to be taught. They are currently being strangled into data gathering change the rules back a bit and guide them so they make good managers one day and better LS in future.?ÿ
now if they would make the letters and numbers bigger on the keypads of these darn data collectors I would be able to not have so many typos. Lol. But my crew chief grew some self confidence that day. He will mess up in future yes but he is willing to fail now and now he is ripe for learning.?ÿ
I've never been a fan of the X-amount of years thing.?ÿ If I learn a certain task in 1 week I don't think I'm going to magically be any better at it in 3 years.?ÿ This is part of the reason I was so aggressive about pursuing the PLS.?ÿ I knew I wouldn't be exposed to PLS things and start gaining PLS experience if I was mindlessly grinding out topos for "3-5 years".
Anyway, I would be in favor of something more along the lines of a checklist.?ÿ The more things from the list you ACTUALLY know how to do the fancier your title.?ÿ Yeah I know it sounds clunky, and it probably is, but it's better than arbitrary time frames, imo.