Also, I'd add that a real professional surveyor will also do a community impact study, to see what kind of accuracy the ORIGINAL surveyor of the subdivision had. I did one sort of recently, where 10' to 20' was normal. Naturally, I was able to yield to some crazy stuff. Because they were original subdivision mons.
Nate
The county's map is rough but using it as roughly schematically correct it looks like someone may have known where the southeast corner is and ran north (maybe magnetic north) ignoring or missing the iron pin that is supposed to be at northeast corner.
As Lone Stranger had explained, the physical width of the roadway, as it was built may be only 18' wide (a common width for a country lane), but that is not the legal width of the right of way. A physical roadway seldom takes up the full width of the right of way.
The right of way is the easement that the local or state government holds to use for roadway and incidental purposes. They may widen the physical roadway, add a walk, place public utilities, and other such incidental uses within the limits of the right of way easement. 33', also known as a length unit of one-half chain, is a common width for country lanes and other tertiary ways in the East and Midwest.
If the actual roadway was built in the center of the right of way easement, the edge of the easement would be 16 1/2 feet from the center of the road.
If the iron you know to exist is the same as the one called for in the description and the more recent surveyor ignored it, that is a problem. But it could be that the iron you are aware of is not the one decsribed in your deed. It may be something that was placed by someone at a later date where they thought the original iron or the property corner was, based on nothing more than an idea that "this seems like about the right spot".
I agree with the idea of having a another surveyor review both maps. Ideally, you would find a surveyor who specializes in boundary surveys and who is also familiar with the area. A surveyor familiar with the area would probably also be familiar with where to obtain unfiled records and notes of retired and/or deceased surveyors. Such records often explain where dimensions or calls to survey monuments or other physical objects mentioned in deeds originated. They also often provide a historical link between original manuments and evidence which may have long since disappeared to other monuments and physical evidence which may now exist.
Good luck.
That one pin left we are 100% sure is correct - one of the original land owners lived across the street from us when we moved in - he told us that pin was an original pin from the original subdivision on the neighborhood - there are a few others thru out the neighborhood like it too. The one that was at the back of the garage was also an original - they stand at least 1.5 feet tall - some are actually painted - prbly by the property owner. I do remember there being others at the northeast corner by the driveway but the landscape is changed and I couldn't swear to exact location - but it certainly wasn't at the point the second surveyor is at...
Looking at this map if you move the 'boundary' lines back to where they line up with the pin (which you can mark almost at the back bumper of the green camaro in the drive way in that brush) that would move the back line to about a foot behind the fence - that end looks correct then...
That would make sense running the long boundary more east then it would go between the houses 83 and 37.
That side of the neighborhood is completely whacked!! The house on the corner is from the 50's the house beside it is new - so to have that line running thru that house makes absolutely now sense! Just wonder who was smoking what when they did this map if boundaries!?
I'm contacting some of the builders I used to work with to see who their engineers are - I've worked with some exclusive builders and I'm sure they would have reputable people for their million dollar plus mansions ... I might not be able to afford their houses but ill spring for their surveyors...
The deed descriptions don't lend themselves to accurate plotting so they did a lot of guessing.
But you are right, it should be a clue when a boundary line runs through old houses like that.
Given what you posted about the location of your southwest iron that would make sense vs. what they plotted on that map.
And the frontage line looks like it should almost run right across the back deck of the camaro - the 'spot' at the south side of the driveway there is a trash can the pin is slightly east and about a foot away into the brush
JoannieD,
That is some of the most important information you have provided. Your testimony of this fact is of great importance to any surveyor you talk to that might be retracing the boundary in this area, and the same testimony would be of absolute value to a court proceeding. (I can't vouch for it being correct, but all parties that have interest in the boundaries in this area must absolutely be privy to this information, and consider it from an unbiased perspective).
The goal of a surveyor, is to walk in the original surveyor's footsteps when retracing an already-existing boundary.
> I'm contacting some of the builders I used to work with to see who their engineers are - I've worked with some exclusive builders and I'm sure they would have reputable people for their million dollar plus mansions ... I might not be able to afford their houses but ill spring for their surveyors...
Be careful even there. Some builders (even building million-dollar homes) hire the cheapest surveyor they can find. I would try to find a law firm that deals in boundary law or real estate law, and ask them if they can recommend a good boundary surveyor (If they are willing to make those kinds of recommendations). Maybe the builders you used to work with will make good recommendations, I don't know, but just be wary. Also, may times big engineering firms treat their surveyors as kind of grunts. The land surveyor is often viewed as sub-engineers in many of these settings. The engineer may be intelligent in his or her field, but they are not experts in boundary as many think they are. A good private surveyor, is your best bet in my humble opinion.
I agree with what Tom says, and would like to add the following--
Good questions to ask any prospective surveyor would be: Have you worked in Ritzie Village? Do you have records of surveys in this area? How extensive are your survey records for this area, and how far back in time do they go?
The descriptions in this area are metes and bounds, and contain calls like "100 feet more or less to an iron pin." A distance that is "more or less" doesn't help much in deciding whether you have found the correct iron pin, or where to place a new pin if the original one is missing. Records of earlier surveys can help a lot with that. Sometimes they are the only thing that will help.
Surveyors not only keep records of old surveys, they frequently pass them from hand to hand. When a surveyor dies or retires, his or her records will often be taken over by another firm. In some states, survey records are also recorded with the Registrar of Deeds, County Surveyor, or other official. I don't know if that's the case in PA.
Other things being equal, a surveyor with a better collection of records will come up with a more accurate location for a boundary, and will be better able to explain it in court if necessary.
Take the GIS map, crumple it up and don't give it another thought. All it will do is confuse you when it comes time to speak with surveyors.
It is a meaningless map when it comes to land boundaries. Most all GIS mapping is carried out from behind a desk. The base layer is usually the roads layer. When the roads are not located in the r/w, you end up with some really erroneous mapping.
Thank you for that advice! This is one of the reasons I reached out to this forum - I am not as well versed in property issues as I am in sales & loans!! I am getting names also from realtors that I have dealt with working in settlements - some I know had surveys done 🙂
If I understand you correctly - this ROW does NOT belong to us & is not part of out lot? 2nd surveyor is INCLUDING it as our land...?? Please clairify??
This makes me feel a little better - 2nd survey is starting at the exact corner and not allowing ROW & ending up almost EXACTLY like GIS ...
Also - from what I can remember on the 1st survey - he planted a pin in the street to the north marking the ROW - o and by the way - those who are wondering if the roads are wrong - I own at least a foot of the northern street (BIRCHWOOD) - my loss - except I can park on it...
JoannieD,
You may well own your lot with a right-of-way easement over your underlying ground; or the agency could own the right-of-way corridor in fee simple. I suspect if your understanding is that you own the ground underneath the roadway, you are correct, but a land surveyor and/or the county or whoever maintains the road could tell you for sure. Keep in mind that many of us on this forum are shooting from the hip, and don't even know your state, typical standards of practice in your state, or your state laws.
Tom
In the first thread labeled "A Link To Barbara J. Drayer's Deed" provided by Paul in PA it appears that the wording in the deed says the tract begins at the southeast corner of the intersection of the two streets, with each half of street being 33 feet. To me, this is saying the road right-of-way is not included in the deed.
Also, look at the aerial view. One has been posted, but it is easy to get to the Dauphin County GIS page and home in even closer. The roads have widths appropriate for their stated dimensions, then the tract descriptions start at the right-of-way line.
