I have a big issue that I need some advice on - 3 years ago a well renown surveyor completed a survey and confirmed boundary lines we were told appx on 30 years ago - this week another surveyor disputed those findings - one thing I think he did wrong is his starting marker is at the street edge - which is 18 feet and should be 33 feet - he came by this mark by finding a buried pin and going back to the corner - there is only one pin that is BONAFIDE as original in the yards and he didn't even consider that pin. If he had he would be heading northwest instead of north to his starting position. My question is how can 2 'renown' surveyors disagree on their findings by such a huge difference and what should I do in this case - I stand to lose a lot of property both front and back if this stands because we do know that if the road is widened it will all come off the front if our property based on the placement of the original pin at the other end - which is 15 feet back off the road - I also know the pin in the opposite direction from this pin is correct as it WAS there when we moved in and the back door neighbor removed it as I saw her do it...any advice is appreciated!! Thank you!
I would speak to the surveyors involved. Or, if you are at odds with them hire another surveyor to review the two maps and discuss the methodologies with you.
These types of questions really can't be answered in this forum. There are simply too many variables involved in boundary determination to simplify and discuss.
As a landowner it is likely you would omit data (unintentionally) that would prove useful to anybody giving advice online.
Good luck, take your time and approach the situation with an open mind.
Usually surveyors come up with the same solution. Sometimes they do not.
My state has some mumbo jumbo about the second surveyor reviewing the discrepancy with the first. (It is only mumbo jumbo because the last time I tried the other surveyor avoided me.)
Good luck.
Joannie, calm down!
You can get some help here. First you need to help us. That is, help us better understand the situation. In what state are you located?
What do you mean by "3 years ago a well renown surveyor completed a survey and confirmed boundary lines we were told appx on 30 years ago ". So how well renown was the surveyor and what parcels was he surveying? Yours? Your neighbors? The roadway?
I am not getting the "appx 30 years ago" thing. How does this relate to the situation?
"My question is how can 2 'renown' surveyors disagree on their findings by such a huge difference and what should I do in this case ". Maybe one is going to be less "renown" after this is sorted out.
The previous poster has suggested that you approach each surveyor with the question, and I have to admit that I have had the same lack of success from time to time, but mostly, these things get sorted out between the surveyors. If not, well, that is why I asked the question about your state. Attempt to contact both surveyors about the apparent disagreement and wait for answers. Give it some time (maybe a couple of weeks) and let us know the outcome.
Aloha, JoannieD:
Folks here are very helpful but you have provide them with good information. I am not a surveyor so I understand what you are facing. Btw, contacting the surveyor you hired 3 years ago is still an option for you? As it is already been suggested...contacting him would be the first step. Retracing boundary lines sometimes are not as simple as we (non surveyors) may think--speaking from first hand experience. I would let the professional sort it out first among themselves before making any hasty conclusion.
While you may not get your solution here but you will get a lot of guidance how to handle and approach the situation intelligently. I sure hope things works out in your favor!
Our back yard neighbor was the one to get the survey 3 years ago - we've been here 33 years and when we bought we were told where the boundary was and the first survey agreed with those boundaries - we are in Pennsylvania - a non-survey state for re sales - now another surveyor is coming up and saying the first guy was wrong - but he is not allowing road frontage for a 33 ft road - our roads are only 18 ft - the one and only pin left is 15 ft back from the road - which allows for the 33 ft road - 1st guy used it - second did not. Second guy found something buried that he says is a pin but if you try to use it - which he is - runs right thru part of our house - septic - cellar doors - etc...
I am planning on waiting until the two hash it out and then if needed get a third on my property...
> I am planning on waiting until the two hash it out and then if needed get a third on my property...
Good! Keep us posted...
You've received some good advice and I will attempt a bit more:
I can't tell if you're aware of it, but there is a difference between the "edge of the road" and the "right-of-way" (ROW). The edge of the road is generally the edge of the asphalt or the back of curb or perhaps the edge of a gravel road. The "right-of-way" is the strip of land the road is supposed to occupy and is almost always significantly wider than the road. In our Texas county, there are many 18 ft wide roads inside a 60 ft. or wider right-of-way, and there are also many roads that have no formal or documented ROW.
You said you were told where the boundary was when you bought the place. Who told you? Did you get a survey then and was it the surveyor that told you? If it was anyone else (like a realtor for example) that told you where your boundary was it may be significantly in error.
If you did get a survey and kept a copy it would benefit everyone if you shared a copy with the other parties.
I have seen many horror stories where people thought they owned far more than they did. So if it turns out that the ROW line is the wider one, You won't be loosing anything. In such a case that land was never yours to begin with.
This is just one of many reasons a current survey is a necessity when buying land; Otherwise you have no way of knowing where your boundaries really are.
Good Luck,
You Bought 33 Years Ago And Relied On What You Were Told.
Just because you were not required to obtain a survey, you still should have had one to protect your investment.
Now you say one surveyor was right and the new one was wrong. Sorry but that is your non-professional opinion, what you need is a professional opinion.
It is entirely possible that both surveys are correct, but based on different titles and title chains. Since the first surveyor was not surveying your property and since it sounds like your surveyor did not cause you to overlap his survey, he may have no reason or need to discuss the differences.
It is easy to find conflicting right of way information, which can change over the years based on new laws, ordinances or actual takings or even relinquishment of right of way. Roads may be defined differently on different maps, one surveyor may reference original filed map information, another may reference tax map information and a third may only indicate the paved width of a road and they may all be different and right at the same time. You need a surveyor to sort that out.
Your surveyor started from a marker he found underground. I seriously doubt he just walked up to it and dug a hole. I am fairly certain he has some information that indicated he should dig there. You need to sit down with him and ask questions. Do not tell him what is or isn't right, but instead ask him why, what you think is right, is not.
Your deed line may in fact go through your house, but that may not be the same as your title line.
In all probability you will not be satisfied and will require an independant survey. Because of the problems you indicate, that new surveyor may have to survey the entire block. If you want a correct answer be prepared to pay considerably more than you have to date. More important than another surveyor is to first engage an attorney experienced in title and boundary issues. Request that he complete a title search on your's and adjacent parcels. That attorney will cost more than your typical surveyor or attorney, as may the thorough title search cost more than a survey.
Where exactly in PA?
Paul in PA
As you and your previous neighbors have relied on your surveyed boundary for 33 years, it's possible that it has been firmly established by legal principles regardless of current surveys. In that case it would possibly have standing in a court. But in any case, you need to await the results, if any, of your inquiry of the surveyors involved.
Until then, it is nothing but conjecture.
We are in Pennsylvania - the people we bought from showed us the boundary - as far as I know none of them ever had surveys - the deed is written that 'beginning at an iron pin at the corner of x rd & y rd both being 33 feet....but neither is 33 - they are only 18 - the 1st survey had marked 'set off' from that corner - which allowed the 33 ft rd - that also allined the back yard the way we always thought it ran - the 2nd survey started at the end of the asphalt of these 2 streets thus coming up way short of the back yard lines - sending the property line to line up going south east rather than south and cutting thru the house,septic,basement doors etc...I'm resigned to getting our own survey since neither of these were for our ground...
What is the difference Paul?
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> Your deed line may in fact go through your house, but that may not be the same as your title line.
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Aloha, Paul: Just for my own understanding…what is the difference between the two? I thought the deed defines the boundary line. Thanks!
Thanks to all who replied - some good advice - I kind of figured I needed to wait and let them hash it out - of needed I will get my own property survey 🙂 thx to all!
You need to take action. The way to do this is to hire a licensed surveyor. Which one to hire is the only question left. Have a chat with a few professional people who utilize surveyors frequently. Start with your county surveyor/engineer or whatever the title of the primary person responsible for maintenance of the county's roads and bridges. Talk with your county appraiser/assessor. Look at the tax maps they maintain. Talk with a couple real estate brokers and a couple bank real estate loan officers. Talk with one or more local abstract company/title company senior officers. The knowledge you gain from these people may answer much of your questions of concern and they should point you to a couple of respected surveyors other than the two who worked for your neighbors.
Several of the things you have told us here make little or no sense to me. First, I have never encountered a road right-of-way that is only 18 feet in width. That is insane. Even our most rural roads are 40 and 50 feet wide. That's the right-of-way width, not the width of the hard surface. Many of our alleys are 20 feet wide, but, they were never intended for routine two-way traffic. Another related concern is that the location of the hard surface of the road may not necessarily be along the centerline of the road right-of-way. I've seen that happen many times.
You have never actually hired a surveyor. You are piggy-backing off the work of your neighbors. As Paul mentioned above, there may be discrepancies in the descriptions of your tract and your neighbors' tracts. It happens. If this turns out to be the case, you will find it helpful to have a knowledgeable professional explain what has happened and guide you in seeking a legal remedy.
To get better advice here, it would definitely help if you would provide the county in which you are located. There may well be two or three regulars here, who will magically reappear on Monday or Tuesday, who routinely perform surveys in your area. Many times only a truly local surveyor can provide you with the best survey as there are many things that are true locally but not on a general basis. That is part of why those of us located far from your backyard can only make guesses at what is needed to solve your problem.
We are in Dauphin County - the 18ft surfaced road is what we dispute too because the deeds allow for 33 ft - we have one original pin in our yard that is 15 feet off the surfaced road - which makes sense because that gives you 33 feet - the 1st surveyor used it - his blue flag is still on it - the 2nd did not - he marked backwards from something he uncovered (he found it with a metal detector) all the pins in this neighborhood stand at lease two feet above the ground-this marker is under ground - my plan is to confire with a professional and get my own lot surveyed if needed after these too hash things out - I know we don't own the ground out front and if you take this part of the ground away you end up where the 1st surveyor pinned things at.
Most realtors don't know where boundary lines are.
Many homeowners don't know where their boundary lines are.
Some surveyors miss evidence.
Some surveyors misinterpret evidence.
Most surveys don't hinge on just one "starting point", but use many monuments and other supporting evidence to reveal the boundary.
A quick check indicates there are at least 40 land surveying offices in or near Harrisburg. Call around until you find one where the person coming to survey your land is the same person who is licensed to do so and can show you proof of licensure.
Dauphin County was first settled circa 1720 and covers the very urban Harrisburg area to the very rural northern townships. email me (see my profile) your name and address and I may get sufficient online information to give you some direction to pursue.
18' paved area is reasonable, for now assume the centerline road equals centerline right of way. The pin that is 15' from the road is 24' from the centerline and may well have been set for an assumed 50' right of way or it may simply be a line pin. Your deed may read 33' right of way, carried forward from way back. There may be a more current ordinance declaring a 50' right of way prior to municipal improvements to same. Or, the adjoiner lot may come from a more recent subdivision where additional right of way was dedicated.
Paul in PA
Pavement not centered in the R/W is very common on rural pavement only roads.
