Ethics

Nate,

If I remember correctly, in Arkansas a survey is not considered completed until the surveyor has been paid, and then we can record the plat.

I see where you are coming from, and this attorney's comments give food for thought.

Jimmy

Seems the possible ethics problem could have been averted by executing a business practice of requiring payment in full before beginning the work.

Just my .00002 cents

A common and accepted business practice is allowing net 30-day for payment. I have never paid my attorney until he produced whatever product was needed. Usually he needs prompting to send an invoice upon completion of his work. I would be insulted if he asked for payment prior to service; as would any client I work for. I think clouding a payment issue in an ethical light is disingenuous at best.

I love it! Only an attorney, can make it an ethics argument as to whether he gets paid before completing the job.

How about this....if you are getting paid for your service, aren't you more likely to come up with a solution that favors the client, as opposed to being unbiased and objective?

I don't have a problem with not filing the plat until payment has been made, but from a consumer's perspective, I don't want to pay for a product unless I am assured to received that product/service. What incentive does the professional have to give me what I paid for (again from the consumer's perspective)? Technically it should be paid upon delivery in my opinion, and that is sometimes hard when delivery is akin to "filing" something...unless you deliver the filing receipt for payment.

Tom

Contract, contract, contract.

Any such question can be easily dealt with by including such matters in the terms of your contract.

This is what I will do....this is what you will do....this is how much you will pay me....this is when you will pay me....etc., etc., etc.

:good:

Let's strip the title of who and what and look at business. My attorney told me this little wonderful quote after asking him to file suit for over 10k owed to me 9 months ago.

"It's sorta like this Craig, you drive into McDonald's and order a sandwich/burger....what is asked of you before you receive the goods? Payment...right?"

As if I didn't already know this. The same can be said about going to the grocery store. You don't leave with out paying. Simple....until it get's to a profession like a doctor....right?

We are not doctors. We provide a professional service. A service that has not such a great track record of being paid for, unless of course you ask for it up front.

Is asking for payment up front unethical? Let's take a poll.

Like it or not if you want to keep going in the same direction then expect the same road blocks.

> I love it! Only an attorney, can make it an ethics argument as to whether he gets paid before completing the job.
>
> How about this....if you are getting paid for your service, aren't you more likely to come up with a solution that favors the client, as opposed to being unbiased and objective?
>
> What incentive does the professional have to give me what I paid for (again from the consumer's perspective)?

The contract for one...but that really doesn't mean much to a small land owner, the cost and bother of suing over $2000 dollars very likely would not be worth it. What we need to educate about is that we are in fact a profession, and we have a board that can punish bad behavior.

The fact is, I agree with his ethical argument. I don't want to be in the loan business, loaning clients money.

🙂

~ N

“What we need to educate about is that we are in fact a profession, and we have a board that can punish bad behavior.”

I am not clear as to what the “bad behavior” in this thread would require “punishing.” Am I to assume that you promote that the State Boards should sanction surveyors who do not collect their fee upfront?
Or better still, do you promote that State Boards should regulate your version of “ethics”?
Once ethics are regulated, don’t they stop being ethics and become rules?

> "...If I did record them before, then it could appear that I have loaned money to my client, and thus am no longer objectively practicing law".

There is an exchange of dialogue in an episode of Perry Mason where a prospective client is trying to browbeat Mason into doing something:

Client: "Now, with that settled, you will do precisely as I tell you..."

Mason, interrupting: " Just a moment. I'll need to know what this is all about before I agree to accept any fee."

Client: "I know what I want done. I want..."

Mason, interrupting: " Then I suggest that you do it. It's been a great pleasure meeting you Mr. Benson, Mrs. Benson...."

"I have an ethical problem with recording these deeds, until I have been compensated for my services, If I did record them before, then it could appear that I have loaned money to my client, and thus am no longer objectively practicing law".

What a bunch of BS. Good or bad business practices aside,
-My attorney had no problem giving me my will and billing me later.
-The attorney who settled my mother-in-law's estate had no
problem doing work, paying for copies, recording documents,
etc for a year before he got paid.
-When do attorneys have any obligation to be objective?
They are supposed to look out for the interests of
their clients, and of course also look out for their own.
-Waiting for payment is not usually construed as loaning money.
Doesn't this guy know the difference between a loan and a debt?
-What if he did loan money? Is there any explicit
"ethics" code/rule against that?

Ethics> about BS from an attorney

I was at a planning board meeting and after my plan was endorsed by the board the Statement of Conditions of Planning Board Approval needed to be signed and the notarized.

Well that's why I got my notary stamp, so I could notarize the conditions and then not have to wait for the planning board office to get it signed and witnessed.

I stood up and volunteered to notarize the document and one member of the Planning Board (a lawyer of course) said that i couldn't notarize it due to potential conflict.

I said, "I'm not an advocate for the client and I don't have any financial interest in the project; Where's the conflict?"
He declined to respond and the board decided to get another notary witness.

Next time I see this lawyer (and I do some work with him on a rare occasion) I'm going to ask him if he can notarize his clients papers.... Now that seems like a conflict to me since he is an advocate!!

Ethics> about BS from an attorney

Don,
he Can't but I betcha he has a secretary who can...:)

> The fact is, I agree with his ethical argument. I don't want to be in the loan business, loaning clients money.
>
> 🙂
>
> ~ N

What does his ethical argument have to do with loaning clients money?

I am not against someone getting paid before recording a plat, but I tend to agree with Angelo, that that issue should be covered in your contract. You are under no ethically-bound obligation to get paid for a service (or to refrain from loaning a client money).

Similarly, I had a realtor tell me when I asked about seeing a house, that she couldn't ethically show me a house if I was already seeing another realtor, and that she didn't want to just show to a bunch of "looky-loos" who went to different realtors.

I disagree. I can go to whatever realtor I want if I don't have a contract and especially if they are wanting to have me sign a statement that I understand that they work for the seller.