I am especially interested in Alabama, Florida and Georgia digital signing rules, but am also interested in how other states handle this.
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Florida rules (see below) allow 2 ways to provide hard copies of electronically conveyed work. The one I am addressing here is the one that states hard copies are to be "accompanied" by an electronic signature (ie digital signature).
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Once a digitally signed PDF file (ie the map) is printed there is no "digital signature" to my way of thinking. When the PDF file is printed it's just a piece of paper. Where is the "digital file" then?
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I can imagine a file copy of a map with digital signature being placed on a USB stick to "accompany" the hard copy. But, is that what the rule is addressing?
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Anyone have any experience with this in their home state?
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I would just like to see a rule that states either:
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Printed copies of digitally signed maps are not considered signed and sealed.
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OR,
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Printed copies of digitally signed maps are considered signed and sealed, and are therefore allowed.
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Florida rule 5J-17.062 states the following:
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(2) A license holder may use a computer generated representation of his or her seal on electronically conveyed work; however, the final hard copy documents of such surveying or mapping work must contain an original signature and seal of the license holder and date or the documents must be accompanied by an electronic signature as described in this section. A scanned image of an original signature shall not be used in lieu of an original signature and seal or electronic signature. Surveying or mapping work that contains a computer generated seal shall be accompanied by the following text or similar wording: ??The seal appearing on this document was authorized by [Example: Leslie H. Doe, P.S.M. 0112 on (date)]? unless accompanied by an electronic signature as described in this section.
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(3) An electronic signature is a digital authentication process attached to or logically associated with an electronic document and shall carry the same weight, authority, and effect as an original signature and seal. The electronic signature, which can be generated by using either public key infrastructure or signature dynamics technology, must be as follows:
(a) Unique to the person using it;
(b) Capable of verification;
(c) Under the sole control of the person using it;
(d) Linked to a document in such manner that the electronic signature is invalidated if any data in the document are changed.
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I treat them as if they were physically signed. I d rag and drop my scanned signature and either send the pdf or send the printed copies.
No different really than those folks who had a signature stamp.
In WA
RCW 19.34.020
(11) "Digital signature" means an electronic signature that is a transformation of a message using an asymmetric cryptosystem such that a person having the initial message and the signer's public key can accurately determine:
(a) Whether the transformation was created using the private key that corresponds to the signer's public key; and
(b) Whether the initial message has been altered since the transformation was made.
(14) "Electronic signature" means a signature in electronic form attached to or logically associated with an electronic record, including but not limited to a digital signature.
RCW 19.34.330
Digital message deemed original.
*** CHANGE IN 2019 *** (SEE 1908.SL) ***
A digitally signed message shall be deemed to be an original of the message.
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From my research on Georgia rules it appears a "facsimile signature" (ie a scanned signature) is acceptable both for hard copies and for maps transmitted in electronic form. This is very different from Florida, which does not allow scanned signatures. In addition, I can find no need at all for a Georgia surveyor to bother with "digital" signature authentication procedures. Actually, from the paragraph on digital signatures (see paragraph (9) of Rule 180-12-.02 below) which states, "This paragraph does not apply to property survey maps and plats governed by OCGA 15-6- 67 which may be submitted in an electronic file format that is regulated by the Georgia Superior Court Clerks Cooperative Authority." it appears Georgia surveyors may not even be allowed to use a digital signature.
However, I am still unable to find whether/if a copy of a map with the digital signature is considered signed and sealed.
From O.C.G.A. 15-6-67 The "Georgia Plat and Condominium Plan Recording Act of 2017"
Georgia Plat Act
?? (B) Other certification information required for plats.
?? (i) The land surveyor shall sign on a line immediately beneath the certification on the plat. At the discretion of the land surveyor and in conformity with local regulations, the surveyor may electronically sign the certification using a facsimile signature. The facsimile signature may be a reproduction of an original signature or an electronically created signature. If the land surveyor elects to use a facsimile signature, the surveyor must maintain full control over the application and use of such signature.
From Rule 180-12-.02 Sealing of Documents
(5) Seals, signatures, dates, and/or other notations required by this Rule shall be placed on original documents such that the seal, signature, date and/or notations, will be reproduced when copies or scans are made. A "facsimile signature" that is to be placed on a property survey map or plat in accordance with OCGA 15-6-67 may be a scanned image of an actual signature or a computer generated signature, and must be kept in the strict control of the land surveyor.
(8) Documents as defined in Paragraph (1) that are transmitted electronically beyond the direct control of the licensee shall have the computer-generated seal removed from the original file, unless signed with an electronic signature as defined in Paragraph (9) of this Rule. After removal of the seal the electronic media shall have the following inserted in lieu of the signature and date: "This document originally issued and sealed by (name of sealer), (license number), on (Date of sealing). This medium shall not be considered a certified document." Hardcopy documents containing the original seal, signature and date of the licensee may be duplicated by photocopy or electronic scanning processes and distributed either in hardcopy or electronic medium. The scanned digital files of certified documents are not subject to the requirements of this Paragraph. The electronic transmission beyond the direct control of the licensee of CAD, vector or other files subject to easy editing are subject to the requirements of this paragraph. Easy editing is based on the file consisting of separate elements that can be individually modified or deleted.
(9) Documents to be electronically transmitted beyond the direct control of the licensee that are signed using an electronic signature shall contain the authentication procedure in a secure mode and a list of the hardware, software and parameters used to prepare the document(s). Secure mode means that the authentication procedure has protective measures to prevent alteration or overriding of the authentication procedure. This paragraph does not apply to property survey maps and plats governed by OCGA 15-6- 67 which may be submitted in an electronic file format that is regulated by the Georgia Superior Court Clerks Cooperative Authority. The term "electronic signature" shall be an electronic authentication process that is attached to or logically associated with an electronic document. The electronic signature shall be:
(a) Unique to the licensee using it;
(b) Capable of verification;
(c) Under the sole control of the licensee; and
(d) Linked to a document in such a manner that the electronic signature is invalidated if any data in the document is changed.
I have been using IdenTrust for digital signature 3rd party verification. Florida has specific language that informs us that a scanned copy of a signature is not allowed.
Also, I have been using my IdenTrust digital signature on my electronically transmitted maps. However, on my hard copy maps I use the standard wet signature and crimped seal. But, what if I print hard copies of my IdenTrust digitally signed electronic file maps, would that be allowable?
II have seen where some professionals include a statement that says, "Printed copies of this document are not considered signed and sealed, and the signature must be verified on any electronic copies".
Ditto. That's essentially my understanding of what we have in Florida, and surveyors are required to comply.
If digital signatures are good enough for million dollar + real estate deals, they should be good enough for surveyors!
For Florida, the term electronic signature is a direct reference to digital signature, and the electronic or digital signature is generated by using either public key infrastructure or signature dynamics technology. The one thing it is not is a scan of a wet signature.
I have seen a number of maps, which having been signed with digital signature in accordance with Florida law, that have the statement , "Printed copies of this document are not considered signed and sealed, and the signature must be verified on any electronic copies". When I have inquired as to where they found the rule, all they say is they don't know, but that they have seen the statement on printed map copies, and figured it was required.
In Florida, I have found that the Board of Professional Engineers require the statement "printed copies are not considered signed and sealed" to be placed on electronically transmitted documents. The linked (below) document explains in detail.
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I have not been successful in locating similar information regarding surveyors, but I strongly suspect the same is probably applicable (to surveyors).
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https://fbpe.org/proper-signing-and-sealing-of-engineering-documents/
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Deeds are notarized at the time of signing, even in the digital world. Work product certification has no such backup, therefore most states I work in require 3rd party certificate validation.
I have had my seal stolen and used. I no longer allow anything other than wet seal and signature in States that do not require 3rd party certificates.
" I no longer allow anything other than wet seal and signature in States that do not require 3rd party certificates"
Good idea.
I too have had my seal seal and signature stolen and used for a $17,000 golf cart easement survey in Atlanta . This happened in Georgia. And, the PE that did it barely got a hand slap. After a lot of pressure from "connected" surveyors in Georgia, I received a letter from the engineer apologizing, then a letter from the Board asking if that (the apology) was satisfactory. The PE explained he was under a "lot of pressure", and something about his draftsman quitting.
The guy who lifted mine was investigated for felony forgery. The prosecutor declined to move forward over lack of jury appeal. The sad part is the same guy had done it before. That surveyor handled it outside the legal system in a very personal manner. I'm too old and busted up to go that route...
@wa-id-surveyor I don't agree with "A digital signature would be considered a facsimile signature used to paste over your signature on a PDF. " Various authorities, some related to surveying, and some related to broader aspects of electronic/digital signatures, have adopted definitions of "digital signature" and "electronic signature" that contradictory. Thus, both phrases are meaningless unless the written work using the phrases includes a definition, or references a definition given by some relevant authority.
Interesting conversation.?ÿ?ÿ I just recently dipped a toe into the PDF digital signature world.?ÿ My "current thought"?ÿ is that the DS (Digitally signed) PDF is a legal document, just as if I had printed and signed/crimped it.?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ One doesn't replace the other, but both are equally valid.?ÿ The PDF is valid in the digital realm of emailing for submittal to legal entities, the signed and crimped paper copy is valid in TRW. (the real world) .?ÿ
So once someone prints the DS PDF, the line is crossed to TRW and they need the actual signed map. ?ÿ
Just my thoughts, open to further discussion, of course. ?ÿ?ÿ
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Andy?ÿ
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Legally binding and conforming to regulatory laws and rules are separate questions. Check the state to avoid a ding on your ticket...
One of the bottom line requirements of most any digital certification is for a properly signed and sealed document be placed in your file along with the other information on that project.
Most BOR want to see copies of your original work when things go south with a client and they make a complaint against you. When you find yourself without, explaining anything without the footsteps proof is an unwanted trail to follow.
"Legally binding and conforming to regulatory laws and rules are separate questions."
Indeed true. I'm familiar with a survey that did not show an AT&T easement through the property. The surveyor had to defend in a lawsuit, even though the map was neither signed nor sealed.?ÿ The only way the surveyor was dismissed from the lawsuit was due to the fact the closing attorney issued the title policy several weeks before he had ever seen the survey map.?ÿ The survey had been prepared for the land owner about a year earlier, but he (landowner) had lost all his signed/sealed copies, and had stopped by the surveyor's office and had the CAD guy ran off a print for him. The land owner was needing a copy in order to give to his architect. The title lawyer just wanted a hard copy for his files...go figure.
According to regulatory rules the map was not valid, but according to the court it certainly was good enough to hold the surveyor responsible for omissions on that map (that is, until it was discovered that the map had not been seen prior to issuing title insurance, and therefore was not a cause of damage).
What's the point of stamping things if you can be sued for "unfinished" work?
