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“plot plan” versus “boundary survey”
“plot plan” versus “boundary survey”
Locally, a ‘plot plan’ is an improvement plan for single family home construction (detached).
In practice, there is no seal required and does not have to be a survey. It is used to demonstrate zoning compliance when applying for a building permit. Generally, the drawing is an ‘at scale’ depiction of the new structure’s location, the setbacks, and the property lines.
I believe the onus for actual zoning compliance (proper setbacks, etc.) falls with whoever drew the document.
Unquestionably, I would not stake a home from someone else’s plot plan without doing a boundary survey. I am a licensed surveyor and it is not an acceptable risk.
***TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER, see below***
Get an actual survey. Get the sealed map in your hand. if it’s required in your state, make sure the surveyor records the map with your county. Have your surveyor show you your corners. Have your surveyor create a plot plan. Let your neighbors know your building a fence (building whatever).
Things will be better in the long run.
Never, ever, forget the wisdom in: penny-wise, pound-foolish.
Isn’t it ironic?
The individual states (jurisdictions) are responsible for professional licensing;
Every state typically has some definition of the “practice of professional surveying”;
Which almost exclusively reserves “boundary surveying” (as defined in “practice”) to those licensed as professionals within the jurisdiction;
Which many, including professional surveyors, will argue is the ONLY reason they issue survey licenses in the first place;
Whereas showing boundary lines on a map is strictly within the purview of a licensed surveyor;
Yet, many of these licensed surveyors will argue that all is fine, well, and good, in favor of, a non-licensed surveyor putting together maps, drawings, exhibits, etc., for permits, approvals, reviews, etc., and think that this practice is perfectly acceptable.
“Is a survey, when they say it’s a survey, but is not a survey, whey they say it is not a survey,” is not a standard (of care), of any kind. Especially when “plot plan” is likely not defined by each (any?) jurisdiction.
i.e. Any drawing, map, schematic, etc. put out by a surveyor (or any other individual) with property lines, title lines, boundary lines, whatever fancy label you think you can slap on the line intended to represent the property line, is, in fact, a boundary survey.
If “it’s not a boundary survey”, then take off ALL the title/boundary/easement related lines and carry on. Oh, now that drawing/map is not acceptable, useful, or relevant?
Yeah, it was a boundary survey from the word go.
Doing less than the standard of care, charging 50%, and attempting to disclaim your responsibility does not relieve you of liability with respect to the law.
The notion that other people can charge money for, and/or perform a service they are not licensed to offer should be the focus of the discussion.
guess all I’m saying is I believe these are two very different products.
You had it right the first time you referenced the work as “services”.
If you want different products, might I suggest milk and cheese.
Both dairy, but different products.
generally speaking, though, wouldn’t it be true that once it’s a “boundary survey” it needs to be recorded? Anything less would not need to be recorded?
A surveyor provided site plan or plot plan as you are asking about, will probably have the boundary lines defined by that surveyor as explained by @gary_g above. However, a plot plan is not a boundary survey, but an instrument required to get improvements you desire, approved by the regulating authority and can even be used as a requirement for issuing a permit. The jurisdiction to whom you are making your request usually dictates who is authorized to make the submittal. I personally do not know of a jurisdiction that requires the submittal to be a surveyor. It could be a PE, the developer, or the land owner himself. Regardless of who submits the plot plan, if they define the boundary lines instead of using assessed lines or an approximation thereof, they better be licensed as a land surveyor in that state. If you, as a PE, submit a plot plan, you would be advised to put a note on your drawing explaining how those lines were established.
If a surveyor does establish the property lines shown on a plot plan from a previous survey, the plot plan would not need to be recorded as a boundary. The actual boundary would need to be recorded if the property is in a mandatory recording state, but not required otherwise.
Keep in mind that the plot plan is a planners tool for zoning/setback restrictions mainly, but may be required before a building permit is issued.
BTW, almost anything can be recorded as a Miscellaneous Document at the courthouse. You can record your son’s math homework if you so desire.
and your Dog’s I.Q.
Rules are different everywhere, but for me: Anyone can prepare a Plot Plan. Any Surveyor can prepare a Plot Plan if he/she has prepared a Boundary Survey. Every Boundary activity requires a drawing. If you explain on the drawing what you are doing then everything is ok. ??This is Not a Boundary Survey? mean that this is not a Boundary Survey.
question – if a surveyor performs a “plot plan” for a client, using say a tape measure, or other imprecise instruments, and not recorded with the county, would that be considered a bona fide survey?
It depends entirely on the jurisdiction. Are you setting line points? Marking approximate points? If so, that would definitely be considered a land survey in ID and would be subject to all of the applicable standards.
generally speaking, though, wouldn’t it be true that once it’s a “boundary survey” it needs to be recorded? Anything less would not need to be recorded?
Nope. Some states don’t require you record even boundary surveys.
BTW, almost anything can be recorded as a Miscellaneous Document at the courthouse. You can record your son’s math homework if you so desire.
Ahhh, try that here, lol
Same here, you can record anything you want to put into the public record. The recording office doesn’t want any liability; once they “approve” something, they become responsible. Not gonna do it, wouldn’t be prudent…
I hope everyone has a great day; I know I will!
@gary_g
That’s what it means to me also. The office always gives me a plot plan for anything I’m laying out… whether it’s in a new subdivision in town or a one off rural build, if I’m laying it out we have a plot plan first, either done by our office or a local engineering firm. Depending on the municipality, most of them (all of them in town) have to have a surveyors real property report done once the foundation is up…often they won’t let them do drywall until we complete the srpr.
The plot plan is not a survey of any kind, it’s just a sketch of the proposed new building with proposed setbacks and grading…when we lay it out for them we make sure that it fits the proposed setbacks on the property.
It’s not a survey until we tie in the building corners on the lot once the foundation is up. Then it’s a “dwelling under construction” as the building is not yet complete. That’s the way it works in our township anyway.
This is what I don’t understand…
Sure, local municipalities can drive development, but not in contravention of state law.
The plot plan is not a survey of any kind, it’s just a sketch of the proposed new building with proposed setbacks and grading…when we lay it out for them we make sure that it fits the proposed setbacks on the property.
Setbacks are not proposed, they are set by zoning.
And what are the setbacks in relation to? The property/boundary lines.
There should never be a doubt that a proposed new build will or will not fit within the building envelope, and be on the correct property.
It’s not a survey until we tie in the building corners on the lot once the foundation is up
Depending on the municipality, most of them (all of them in town) have to have a surveyors real property report done once the foundation is up…often they won’t let them do drywall until we complete the srpr.
How does this sequence of events prevent the house from being built over the line, or outside the building envelope, but inside the property, or any other number of problems we see in construction? Architects, engineers, developers, builders, owners, laypeople, etc., repeatedly demonstrate that they probably should not be preparing “plot plans”, but they are, and they do.
The hole is dug, the (basement) foundation is laid, the lumber is up, but we’re going to stop construction at drywall?
The goal of building codes, zoning, etc. is to get things right ahead of time, and not have the muni be in the business of handing our variances like candy after the fact.
I get it. This happens all the time, and in every state. But every additional layer of government manages to take a straightforward process and make it worse for wear.
And in Boulder Colorado shade lines are a huge discrepancy and faux pax when the building height reaches 2 stories. it’s a real crazy thing to witness, esp if you’re on the losing side..
I agree with your last paragraph. It’s ridiculous to stop them at drywall. But that’s the city for you.
As for setbacks, yes they are proposed.
Minimum setbacks are set by the zoning. That doesn’t mean we set them at the minimum. We always leave a little bit of wiggle room even if some of the proposed are set at the minimum, by someone else doing the plot plan.
Proposed setbacks are just that… proposed. This is where they plan to build it. Once we tie in the building, the srpr will show actual ties to the property lines. By that point, they better be within the minimum setbacks set by the zoning. The zoning should always be in the file for the job.
generally speaking, though, wouldn’t it be true that once it’s a “boundary survey” it needs to be recorded? Anything less would not need to be recorded?
State specific. Not all states require recording
I wasn’t arguing with you, merely using your unique example of how common it is for local municipalities bungle simple tasks.
Now I will argue with you.
By definition, a setback is the minimum distance that a building is required by local law to be set back from the edges of whatever piece of private property it sits on.
The location of the building does not change the setbacks.
Your “local use of vocabulary” is not consistent with the proper application of the term within the context of the law.
Can’t it be that “setback” is the actual distance, and there is a legally required minimum value for that distance?
.There’s been a lot of talk in this thread about how things are different in different states. The OP profile says he is in Wisconsin.
He had a lot of discussion in earlier threads about a disagreement over a boundary.
.He had a lot of discussion in earlier threads about a disagreement over a boundary.
Me thinks attorneys, paralegals, and admin staff regulary troll this forum for research starting points in lieu of experience and the cost of paying for fumbling LexisNexis/Westlaw searches.
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