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Old Deed
Old Deed
Hello,
I bought the farm from my grandmother’s estate. I grew up on the property. I know the land pretty well, but neighboring properties once owned by family have been sold and divided. Because of this, I want to really know my legal property lines. The old description doesn’t match up with any gps overlays from the Public Land Survey System. The tracts are written as follows. This is also property in Indiana.
#1
The southeast quarter of the southeast quarter of section two (2) township three (3) south, range one (1) east——40 acres
#2
The east half of the southeast quarter of the southeast quarter of section two (2), township three (3) south, range one (1) east containing 20 acres, more or less.
Thank you,
Kyle
- 13 Replies
Are you certain those are the descriptions? The second description is simply the east half of the first description. Thus, it makes no sense to have that tract included twice.
Is this about 60 miles west of Louisville, KY near Curby or Pilot Knob in Crawford County?
Holy Cow,
You are correct, it is by Curby, and tract #2 has a typo. The first “southeast” should be “southwest”.
If you don’t know where the lot lines fall on the ground, and none of your family can show you the corner markers (if any exist), then you are going to have to hire a surveyor to find them on the ground and mark them up for you. I suggest you ask around to find someone reputable in that area, and don’t hire the lowest bidder. There may be some surveyors on this forum who can either do the work, or point you towards someone who can, but that is about the extent of the advice you will find here, given your circumstances. Since I work in the northeast, I can’t even guess as to what it might cost to survey those lots.
Should there be marks? If so, are they on every corner or just one?
If there aren’t markers, how does a surveyor locate the lines? What starting points do they use?
Every time I try to use a GIS type map the PLSS lines vary from map to map. Sometimes the lines are 20 years on the other side of the road inside a neighbor’s fence. My mapping surveys don’t go very well.
I don’t know if old fence lines trump legal descriptions or there are any other rules like that.
Well, this is what your county GIS is showing. That 3 ac. bite out of the NE corner is not accounted for in the description you supplied. And the west line, as plotted, looks, maybe, somewhat out of place. But that is just GIS – not definitive. As already suggested a real survey may be in order.
Two things.
First, it appears the GIS department believes they have a clear reason to show the three-acre chunk to not be part of what you should own. There must be a reason and a description matching that piece. This is probably a case of overlooking a tract that was deeded away previously. I have seen this many times when the person assembling documents for some transaction simply grabs the vesting deed from many years earlier and tries to use it today. That misses any actions taken in the meantime.
Second, the west line appears to not be at an even split with the tract to the west of it. That may or may not be true. It may be a case of the GIS technician simply grabbing a fence line or tree line and making an assumption. Or, it could be a case similar to one of my own properties. My neighbor has a deed saying the east half of the southwest quarter. My deed says the west half of the southwest quarter. That precision division line would fall about thirty to forty feet to the west of a very old, well-established tree row that is clear on the oldest aerial maps I have found. It is clear that the intent over 100 years ago was to take the pasture and hay meadow on the east side of that tree row and transfer it to one party while the remainder, all being cropland and a house/farmstead, to the west of that tree row went to a different party years later. The assumption was surely a case of figuring the tree row was close enough to the center to call it the center.
The only true solution is to find a quality land surveyor who routinely works the Crawford County area. The surveyor should evaluate all properties surrounding your deeded tracts as well as your deed(s). That is the first step. Research time is highly important. Surveying is much more than going around your land and taking measurements. A competent surveyor will lead you to the truth, whether that agrees with what you and your neighbors might prefer or not. Surely one of our Indiana contributors here will find this thread soon. I am only licensed in Kansas, so can only offer general advice. Frequently there are unique peculiarities to a specific area that only those working there routinely already know. Find that surveyor.
Sorry, I forgot to address it earlier, but I also own that 3 acres on the northeast corner. That was 3 acres that my grandma deeded to one of my aunts. Before my grandma passed, that aunt deeded it back.
On the southern edge close to the line, there have been two houses built recently.
I note that the 3 acres is under the same ownership as the 57 acres, according to the GIS. The parcel was split off in or before 2017. The county has classified the 3-acre parcel as a mobile home tract. It was deeded in 2017 Brunelle to Landers, and in 2019 both the 3-acres and 57 acres Landers to Wilkins.
The description of that 3-acre parcel needs to be carefully checked, because the GIS line splits a building (mobile home?), whereas one would have expected such a parcel to enclose one or more buildings with some ground around them.
.That three acres may have been mortgaged separately at some time for convenience. Or, in some counties, the County Appraiser may treat a rural residence as a separate parcel from the remainder of the tract as they apply differing taxation rates on residential versus purely rural farmland. Other apparent odd splits can occur when a single tract has a change in taxation from one part to another. An example would be something like the southeast quarter of the southeast quarter being in School District A while the east half of the southwest quarter of the southeast quarter is in School District B.
Should there be marks? If so, are they on every corner or just one?
There might be markers, of one type or another. There might never have been markers set, or they may have been buried or destroyed.
If there aren’t markers, how does a surveyor locate the lines? What starting points do they use?
We use records research to figure out a “starting point”. Every survey is different, with a different set of facts. We work with what is available to figure it out.
Every time I try to use a GIS type map the PLSS lines vary from map to map. Sometimes the lines are 20 years on the other side of the road inside a neighbor’s fence. My mapping surveys don’t go very well.
A GIS is a planning and data analysis tool. The mapping of various features is done using a variety of methods with a wide range of accuracies. Property lines are usually not very accurate in a GIS, and they should only be considered a rough estimate of actual location.
I don’t know if old fence lines trump legal descriptions or there are any other rules like that.
There are many legal principles involved based upon statute law, common law, and court rulings. The facts found during a particular survey determine which legal principles to apply when evaluating the evidence to find where the boundaries lie on the ground.
I bought the farm
“Bought the farm” is Aviation jargon for fatal crash.
My language was not clear. The 3 acres is included in the description you supplied. It’s exclusion on the GIS map is what is not accounted for.
I want to make this very clear – LINES ON A GIS MAP ARE NOT DEFINITIVE AS TO OWNERSHIP LINES. The cartographer does his best in the time available, with the information he is given, to sketch things out generally. But he is very likely to have only minutes per parcel to interpret conflicting deed descriptions based on very limited ground ties. It should be considered to be a schematic sketch only.
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