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Front lot line on the outside radius of a cul-de-sac
Front lot line on the outside radius of a cul-de-sac
I think maybe there’s a little confusion on the question that your asking, the lot line isn’t a line per se, but an arc as depicted on your plat, the center of that arc or commonly referred to as the radius point, is the theoretical center of the cul de sac. From said radius point the arc of property line is scribed on a 40′ radius off that radius point. The radius point being located, in theory any way, 40′ from all property corners shown on the plat common with the arc of the entire cul de sac. Very, very common and clearly understood by any and all surveyors. The plat depicting the lot is the legal description for your lot and and is referred to as a ‘reference’ description (referencing the plat). There is no alternative interpretation. This will most likely only become a major issue for the ‘owner/builder’ when they go to sell the property and the bank requires an as-built survey showing buildings and improvements in relation to the easement and ROW/property lines, as a condition of financing, in which case the encroachments will constitute cause for the bank to decline to finance the sale. If they had to foreclose, they don’t want a headache on their hands.
Willy
@williwaw most reasoned answer so far.
encroachment agreements with the dominant estates of the easements are in place so that is not the issue. But so you know, The front easement is subterranean water line and the rear is arial power line. The power line easement is waived because the actual line runs diagonally across the property. Not sure why the surveyor didn’t pick this up.
so please focus in on the radius of the cul-de-sac. if your assertion is the entire 150 degrees in the legal front property line point us to the law/text/case law supporting this position.
FWIW multiple zoning ordinances define the front lot line, if it is a curve, as the chord connecting the 2 corners of the lot
FWIW multiple zoning ordinances define the front lot line, if it is a curve, as the chord connecting the 2 corners of the lot
Zoning ordinances have absolutely nothing to do with defining your lot’s boundary, but you’re free to believe whatever you like. This is the age of alternative facts after all. Also the utility easements were dedicated by the subdivision plat for the use of all utilities, those present and in the future. I’m not sure why you’re here asking surveyors to clarify survey related questions when it appears that you are already convinced that you have all of the answers. Good luck with that.
Willy
so please focus in on the radius of the cul-de-sac. if your assertion is the entire 150 degrees in the legal front property line point us to the law/text/case law supporting this position.
I am the subject matter expert. So are all the people that answered the question. We ARE the source that you cite.
So…better question…what source to disagree?
I am not saying this to be arrogant, but to attempt to put into perspective what is occurring here. This forum isn’t (just) a collection of crackpots that will argue about how to put together your truck or which handgun is best, or whatever. The people answering this question are well intentioned, honest to goodness experts in the field that are making a good faith effort to answer your question.
From what I can see, you WANT to own a straight line between the two front corners of your property. Every answer so far encourages you to look at your legal description, see what lot in what plat you bought, and then look at the plat. If it has a curve on the front of your lot…well, that is what you bought.
And, no, you cannot adversely possess or gain exclusive rights to a right of way, unless you can get it vacated, and then you would just get a slice, not the whole thing.
-All thoughts my own, except my typos and when I am wrong.
Just Wow!
@scrim thank you.
as hard as it is to believe there are still areas untouched by regulation and development rules. I live in one.
The road in question was platted to meet Texas County Road regulations. But that’s where it ended. The 40’ radius cul-de-sac was never built and the road is now a private road in a multi owner subdivision.
the time line is the subdivision plat was filed in 1981. then deed restrictions were recorded months later. The building set backs do not appear on the plat. The deed restrictions did not run with the land so are arguably null for all but original owners.
this is not a title survey so no title orders & all that implies.
The deed is silent on easements and building set backs.
the restrictions establish a 5’ side street building set back and a 20’ front line set back. Neither of these terms has a legally accepted definition per my attorneys. Neither is defined in the restrictions. If there was just a 20’ setback from all roads this would be clear.
Not trying to skew anything just running the traps to see if the greater survey group can point to legal definitions for these two terms.
@aliquot yet if a lot fronts on a single road that makes a 90 degree curve then in fact it has two frontages. One usually the shortest is designated the front lot line while the longer is commonly designated the side lot line. However this is not concrete because the initial owner can request the longer line be the front lot line if that’s were his front door and thus front yard is oriented. This case is clear when the lot is on the inside of the curve. It is not clear on the outside of a curve.
I am confused by the 50′ ROW for the street and the 40′ radius with found pins on the radius.
Looks like the 50′ street ROW runs up to the throat of the cul-de-sac. Would you agree that the ROW in the cul-de-sac is 80′?
MH
@jsargent99 ahh, I see you aren’t actually asking how to calculate the frontage, you are asking about front yard vs. side yard. There is actually no standardization of that. It varies based on local zoning ordinances. But you said there is no zoning? The other place that may be defined is the local subdivision ordinances, but that will only apply if you are subdividing.
You will probably get much better help if you explain what you are doing, and why this matters. Are there covenants that refer to side and front frontage?
The 40’ radius cul-de-sac was never built and the road is now a private road in a multi owner subdivision.
So, the 50′ ROW of Southwood Circle abuts your lot and you’re trying to square-off your frontage?
MH
The current front lot line is that entire curved arc impacting only your lot. Apparently, you are not to construct anything within 20 feet of that entire arc, not some portion thereof.
The statement about using the chord between the two ends of that arc is laughable. If the cul-de-sac were vacated by some bizarre process, you would only get the pie-shaped piece from one end of the arc to the center point of the cul-de-sac and from there to the other end of the arc. However, you would then have no access at all to get to your lot as the owners of the adjoining lots would block you off from the 50-wide road.
The 40’ radius cul-de-sac was never built and the road is now a private road in a multi owner subdivision.
The road doesn’t automatically become private because the cul-de-sac wasn’t built. It was a public dedication when the plat was filed. In order for it to become a private road, you would need to do a public vacation of the right-of-way, and file an approved plat.
if a lot fronts on a single road that makes a 90 degree curve then in fact it has two frontages.
The delta angle of the arc has nothing to do with anything. Nothing. In your case, there is a single front yard that fronts on a cul-de-sac. Period. You don’t have two front yards. Look at the subdivision plat. Read your deed description. That’s what you own, you can’t read between the lines.
@aliquot yes front yard is a related concept. I am well aware of the term legal “property line” and most on this thread have missed the distinction – the question was is there a legal definition of front lot line where no zoning or subdivision regulations exist.
the building set backs only exist is the deed restrictions and they cloud the issue by establishing a side street setback and a front lot line set back.
lots on a curve >=91 degrees will have frontage on 2 sides,yes? The shorter frontage by convention is the front lot line and the longer frontage by convention is a side lot line. But this convention is by no means a legal constant. Because an owner can elect to place his front door facing the longer side & designate it as his front lot line.
So the question is does this same logic apply to a cul-de-sac lot owning 150 degrees of a corner, in this case a cul-de-sac in the survey world. Because by definition (legal and mathematics) a circle has infinite sides.
With the restrictions establishing a side street set back the question is valid.
@jsargent99 can you share the deed restriction language? The distinction between front and side frontage usually only is applicable when there differnt roads, and then how it is defined is usually based in local ordinances that vary.
When a lot only fronts one road the entire frontage is usually the front, no matter how much the road curves. When applying zoning setbacks to lots like yours, I have never seen a situation where the setback wouldn’t apply to the entire cul-de-sac frontage. If you are intent on arguing something else over some else’s objections you may need an attorney.
5’ side street building set back and a 20’ front line set back. Neither of these terms has a legally accepted definition per my attorneys. Neither is defined in the restrictions.
the “front” and “side” of a project are open questions. However, it would be “normal” (at least where I have worked) to consider the side pointing towards the CDS as the “front”. If the HOA says this is the case, you can fight that, of course (which is why you have a lawyer), but I think it would be hard to find very many people like us to come up with a different answer as to “normal”.
The siting of the house, and other factors come into play, of course.
-All thoughts my own, except my typos and when I am wrong.yes front yard is a related concept. I am well aware of the term legal “property line” and most on this thread have missed the distinction – the question was is there a legal definition of front lot line where no zoning or subdivision regulations exist.
no one here missed the distinction…and there is a legal definition of the front line of your property…look at the LEGAL DESCRIPTION in your deed. That is all anyone ever said here. Then we told you how to interpret that deed.
-All thoughts my own, except my typos and when I am wrong.The cul-de-sac must exist as open and must not be vacated. The lot in question must pass through the cul-de-sac to access the 50′ road leading into the cul-de-sac. Otherwise, the lot is land locked and of value only to someone who has access to a public road. Thus, the lot is the lot as platted………period…………end of story.
The cul-de-sac must exist as open and must not be vacated. The lot in question must pass through the cul-de-sac to access the 50′ road leading into the cul-de-sac. Otherwise, the lot is land locked and of value only to someone who has access to a public road. Thus, the lot is the lot as platted………period…………end of story.
Hmmm,
Or, the legal description, which we have not seen, is ambiguous and invalid and he bought nothing…
-All thoughts my own, except my typos and when I am wrong.Otherwise, the lot is land locked and of value only to someone who has access to a public road.
Ingress and egress.
MH
the question was is there a legal definition of front lot line where no zoning or subdivision regulations exist.
It follows, since no zoning or subdivision regulations exist, there are no relevant definitions. A definition is not needed since no regulations exist that would make use of any definition.
And since no regulations exist you wouldn’t have wasted your money on attorneys and you wouldn’t have wasted your time asking these questions on this forum. Since there are no regulations you are able to do anything you want and not be troubled by others.
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