Front lot line on the outside radius of a cul-de-sac

  • Front lot line on the outside radius of a cul-de-sac

    Posted by jsargent99 on August 10, 2023 at 4:59 pm
    1. I want to determine the front lot line for the depicted lot. It is in an unzoned rural area with no applicable ordinances.  My copious research turns up several options including the chord connecting the lot corners on the CDS, an allocation of the radius based on the CDS arc midpoint and a tangent to the CDS, a portion of the lower radius beginning at the intersection of a line drawn parallel to the opposite side line extending from the top lot corner, etc.

    anyone got experience with this type of lot?  Here is the subdivision plat. Water front lot. House runs parallel to the lake.  No road frontage other than 150 degrees of a never built cul-de-sac radius. No zoning. Bo building codes. No permitting. There is a HOA. Deed restrictions are in litigation. The additional structure is a detached garage.

    RADAR replied 9 months, 2 weeks ago 16 Members · 43 Replies
  • 43 Replies
  • field-dog

    field-dog

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 5:14 pm

    I want to determine the front lot line for the depicted lot.

    What line? It’s an arc. The frontage of the lot has an arc length of 74.71′. Why is the concrete drive encroaching so much into the cul-de-sac? The rear of the house is encroaching into a utility easement.


    MH
  • holy-cow

    holy-cow

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 5:32 pm

    The simplest method is to find the center point of the circle forming the cul-de-sac.  With at least three found bars that is a piece of cake.  Then swing a 40-radius from there which will hit the three found bars and show the curved edge of the lot.

  • field-dog

    field-dog

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 5:39 pm

    @holy-cow 

    Guess I read the OP’s post incorrectly. They want to determine, as in on the ground, the location of the frontage? Holy Cow + 1, Field Dog – 1. Hopefully the three found property corners in the cul-de-sac are in the right places.


    MH
  • MightyMoe

    MightyMoe

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 5:46 pm

    We all have experience with these types of lots, that building needs to move west asap, there isn’t room to place it there. You’re in the setback line, in an easement, and no doubt violating all building codes to a point you can’t get any variances. 

    It’s time to rethink what you’re doing here. Hopefully this is some type of design plan, and nothing has been constructed. 

  • DeletedUser

    DeletedUser

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 5:53 pm

    @field-dog yes the frontage is the question.  If the arc was 90 degrees or less it’s simple. But the arc is like 150 degrees.  

    as far as I can determine there are multiple definitions for FLL when on a curve. Only 2 I’ve found specific to on a cul-de-sac. None that address this specific case on the outside radius of a CDS.  In absence of local ordinances, zoning or otherwise, and without any case law clarifying this I wanted to reach out to a wide audience of pros to see if anybody has input in this. 

    The underlying issue is that there are building lines which only appear in the deed restrictions.  5’ from side street line and 20’ from front lot lines.  These did not make it onto the recorded plat. No zoning so no help there. DRs may have expired. 

    state board says in this case setbacks cannot be determined. 

    just wondering if anybody as dealt with this on a project and if not to gather input on what y’all were taught. 

  • Gordon Svedberg

    Gordon Svedberg

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 6:06 pm

    Like the north arrow.

  • Norman_Oklahoma

    Norman_Oklahoma

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 6:10 pm

    I am not familiar with the acronym “CDS”. Otherwise this problem is just another day at work. If you are the homeowner, and close enough is good enough, you measure 40′ from the various property corner monuments to find the radius point of the cul-de-sac. Then you swing 40′ from that radius point to mark points along the circumference.  

  • holy-cow

    holy-cow

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 6:24 pm

    @norman-oklahoma 

    CDS =Cul-De-Sac

    Not a common abbreviation.

  • john-hamilton

    john-hamilton

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 6:44 pm

    I am confused by the 50′ ROW for the street and the 40′ radius with found pins on the radius. Looks like the CDS was not built? 

  • DeletedUser

    DeletedUser

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 7:35 pm

    So no input on the question which was the frontage.

  • DeletedUser

    DeletedUser

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 7:39 pm

    @john-hamilton yes never built. That is why the concrete drive extends over the unbuilt road bed to the road causeway. This is not an issue. Issue us whether or not the entire 159 degree radius is a front lot line. 

    Can anybody here can point to the legal definition of front lot line?  

  • DeletedUser

    DeletedUser

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 7:40 pm

    @holy-cow yes CDS = cul-de-sac

  • DeletedUser

    DeletedUser

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 7:47 pm

    @norman-oklahoma so the entire radius is the front lot line?  Basis for this if so?  If basis Industry “best practice” what is the legal underpinning of this?  

  • Scrim

    Scrim

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 8:23 pm

    Ouch, this building layout has issues. The easement encroachments will make it very difficult to obtain bank loans for construction and future mortgage.  The road must run along a ridge line, too steep to build anywhere else?

    I agree with establishing the center of the cul-de-sac and measuring an arc from there, but just use it for reference, don’t use it for construction. Hire a surveyor for precise layout.

  • DeletedUser

    DeletedUser

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 10:28 pm

    @scrim. I guess I should only have posted the plat.

    The question is what is the front lot line. And if your input is the entirety of the radius, then what is that based on. I have been told that “best practice” is the entire radius. But so far nobody not even the state board can point to a legal underpinning for this practice. There are zoning ordinances in various municipalities that address frontage on a curve, but they appear limited to interior radius properties.  and most do not address ownership greater than 135 degrees. 

    I have reviewed numerous zoning regulations and text book cases complete with diagrams of various lot types but have not found this specific case. 

    thanks for your input 

  • Norman_Oklahoma

    Norman_Oklahoma

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 10:48 pm

    so the entire radius is the front lot line?

    The solid curved blue line  – the one that passes across your concrete driveway and comes with 9.0′ of the front of your slab- is the right of way line and therefore you property line. 

     

    Basis for this if so?

    That is what the map you provided shows. And it is a very common circumstance. 

     

    And, for the record the map also shows your slab encroaching into a utility easement (the U.E. on the map) both front and back. Also encroaching into a “B.L.”,which I’m guessing stands for “building line” – which I would call a “setback requirement”. 

    BTW-In my states there is no such thing as an unzoned area with no ordinances. There are certainly some places with minimal restrictions. But none with no restrictions at all. 

  • RADAR

    RADAR

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 10:50 pm

    so the entire radius is the front lot line?

    I wouldn’t call it a radius; call it an arc.

    What is prompting you to figure this out?

    First step: Establish the radius point. Get a can of inverted spray paint and strike an arc 40′ from one of the found corners. Measure from one of the other corners to the point where 40′ intersects. Check the distance to the other found corners. 90 deg angles work best at the intersection, but take what you can get.

    Step B: Take your can of paint and mark the arc 40 feet from your established radius point.

    Hope this helps; please let me know if you need anything else or if you have any other questions or concerns.

     

    Thank you,

    Dougie


    I hope everyone has a great day; I know I will!
  • Scrim

    Scrim

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 10:59 pm

    The front lot line is clearly defined by the subdivision plat.  It is an arc of 74.71 feet that has a radius of 40 feet from the calculated center of the cul-de-sac.  The fact that the cul-de-sac is unconstructed has no bearing on where your front lot line is.  The 40′ radius cul-de-sac is a dedicated public right of way, as shown on the plat.  That is the basis: the plat.  There is no “best practice”, it is a clear fact. The “underpinnings” are based upon AASHTO policy on geometric design of highways and streets.  40′ is the required radius of the cu-de-sac (if constructed) to allow emergency vehicles to turn around at the end of the road. These road geometrics are typically further defined by the county planning commission or local subdivision ordinance to ensure that developers provide (and construct) safe roads for the public.  The fact that your cul-de-sac was not constructed indicates that development standards are quite lax in your community.  If anyone (neighbors, town, county, state) wanted to put that cul-de-sac in, they would tear up the concrete pad that you constructed in the right-of-way.  And your house would be that much closer to the public road way.  Also note that your house footprint encroaches into the 10′ public utility easement that is along (offset into your lot) the front lot line.  If a utility company needed to use it (power, electric, whatever) they have all the right to go in there and install utilities.

    Not sure what you are getting at, or how you want the facts distorted in your favor.  To a land surveyor, this is all clear as day.  No if, ands, or buts.  The real question is, why wasn’t a land surveyor consulted before someone started building?  Doesn’t your community require a building or zoning permit prior to construction?  How about a driveway permit?  There is a reason these permits are required, not everyone understands how to read a subdivision plat.

    Sorry for the rant, and I’m glad you are asking questions.  I deal with these types of issues on a daily basis.  Most of the time people come to me after the fact, after they are in trouble. Always remember, being an attorney or engineer doesn’t make you a land surveyor.

  • RADAR

    RADAR

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 11:01 pm

    legal underpinning for this practice

    I don’t see a legal underpinning. You only own what your deed says you own. The limits of your property are defined in your deed. The regulations in the municipality where you live; govern where, what and how you can build what you want to build. 

    You’re welcome.

    Dougie


    I hope everyone has a great day; I know I will!
  • aliquot

    aliquot

    Member
    August 10, 2023 at 11:02 pm

    @jsargent99 the “legal underpinning” is the words themselves. What do you need to know the frontage for?  In common usage a lot’s frontage is the length of the boundary that is common to the lot and the ROW.  

    I have never seen a local ordinance that really departs much from that. Of course that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Here is the definition from the ordinance that is most convenient for me to look up: 

    Frontage” means that dimension of a lot which abuts upon a road right-of-way or other access.

    Most are similar. Unless guided by a local ordinance that says otherwise, you would struggle to convince anyone it isn’t the length if the curve. 

    Your search probably didn’t turn anything up, because this may seem to obvious to most people to bother talking about it. 

     

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