What would you do?
If you haven't already - speak with the owner to the north to find out what he knows/thinks about the boundary!
If his line was ran on the ground at the time of establishment and was marked in a less than straight line, it is very possible that the monuments you have found are 'on the line'. You may find out how the line was established by speaking to the adjoiner to the north.
WHY?
Why are these divided lots to the south off?
Different surveyors, different dates? That incompetence stuff? An actual mistake?
I would look at the footsteps of the dividing surveyors and attempt to figure out why they did that they did. Did they show adjacent plans? Did they show adjacent monuments? Did anybody tie into the two monuments you have defining the property to the north?
"Would you set additional monuments on the east-west line between the original senior monuments that are very close to found monuments and make a pin cushion because the other mons were a few (2-3) feet off?" Yes, of course.
"You would show all monuments on the plat." Yes, of course.
One can not be mapped out of title (usually).
NOt that I disagree with some of the contrary responses. But those responses are directed at other hypotheticals in my view.
Probably would not end up holding all of them for line in the other direction either. Typically in these situations we find one or more that don't work that way because they have been stubbed in by landowners from other monuments they found.
And the inevitable question; what if it was .04 off? Depends if we're in Manhatten or farm country.
What Does The Preponderance Of Evidence Show?
Assume the senior South line is due E-W, monument to monument.
I believe it is doubtful that the southerly 1000' tract did not also have monuments to it's South line. First compare them with the presubdivided tract.
How were the 200' lots created, filed map or by deeds?
Does the filed map or deeds call for the senior monuments?
Are the courses due E-W?
Do the lots to the South have agreement, map or deed to all 4 corners of each?
When considering repose, it first falls on the North's senior monuments.
Repose for the junior lots requires more overt actions than someone merely setting markers, especially if said markers are not in record agreement.
The resurveyor of the North tract has no authority to set pins along the North tract line delineating the South lots. Simply show what is found, over or clear of the line, and let the missplaced evidence speak for itself.
The resurveyor of the South tract in it's entirety gets to fix it. Given no encroachments or zoning violations, have at it.
If it is as bad as explained, I expect to see a few of the South lot corners with multiple monuments.
Paul in PA
Is there a surveyor here,
that would not accept my junior 1/16th sec. cor. monument along the section line, if it was found to be a little off the senior line?
Speak up, if you believe junior corner monuments do not control senior lines.
"You can't sell what you don't own" is another one of those bogus theories!
Keith
Define A Little Off
I doubt 4-5' in 1,000' feet qualifies.
In fact that does not meet the standard of care of a surveyor.
Paul in PA
Will you sign my deed?
I would like to quitclaim a parcel of land to you. Simple description: bounded on the south by a line exactly 1 mile south of the north pole.
You Can Sell Anything, But Granting Title Is Something Else
Title cannot pass if the grantor does not have title to grant.
Whether a bogus sale ripens into title is up to a judge not a surveyor.
Paul in PA
I would treat the junior monuments like closing corners and hold the senior line. Sounds much like the utility installers just pulled and replaced the irons in the original vicinity. Plus or minus several feet for subdivision mons meets no spec I ever saw. Put them back per the plat on the senior line as called for on the plat.
Define A Little Off
A little off would be in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 links. My error of closure was to be within 1:5000!
This is in the 60's and not downtown Billings, Montana, but out where the BLM has land or interests.
Keith
I think closing corner concepts should be held to closing corners.
Since the OP was a hypothetical and was to generate discussion, here goes.
Please, someone, (because I haven't found one yet) cite a court case in which an original undisturbed monument was expressly rejected by the court and was not held as the property corner, because it was "off" by enough to not meet a "standard of care" or some other "specification" of measurement precision.
You Can Sell Anything, But Granting Title Is Something Else
In the establishment of a boundary no title passes. The title passes by a recorded conveyance (governed by the statute of frauds). The location of the boundary occurs on the ground by the actions of the landowners. So when a boundary line is established there is no ripening of title or transfer of title at all. There is an establishment of the location of the boundary to the title that was owned and conveyed. Nobody transferred anything they didn't own (hold title to).
So the question when a surveyor arrives to do a retracement survey is not just a check to to see if perfection to the description in the deed has been achieved previously. There needs to be an investigation into whether the boundary has been established or not. If the line has been established (hopefully by good previous survey work and procedures accepted and relied upon by the landowners) then the surveyor should respect the established boundaries, report them and leave things as they where. If it can be shown that the lines are not established then the work changes to that of putting in place what's needed for the landowners to establish the lines. This would be much more in tune with using the rules of construction, the description and the math.
I think the vast majority of the time things are pretty straight forward, boundaries have been properly created and established. But then there is the rest, the mess, the boundaries that need proper attention. That's where careful understanding an application of state boundary law needs to be applied to the situation by the land surveyor.
> Since the OP was a hypothetical and was to generate discussion, here goes.
>
> Please, someone, (because I haven't found one yet) cite a court case in which an original undisturbed monument was expressly rejected by the court and was not held as the property corner, because it was "off" by enough to not meet a "standard of care" or some other "specification" of measurement precision.
Seems to me the courts have been more interested in deciding whether a junior monument has attained senior status due to repose, than addressing the somewhat curious question you ask.
Cosing Corner Might Apply To Keith's 1/16 Corner
Paul in PA
My 1/16th corners are not closing corners
🙂
Brian,
Maybe add junior corner monuments in to your question?
Is there a surveyor here,
> "You can't sell what you don't own" is another one of those bogus theories!
>
> Keith
How in the world is that a bogus theory?
Er....just in case I'm wrong, can I interest you in a high-rise in downtown Manhattan? Cheap!
Brian,
> Maybe add junior corner monuments in to your question?
I think they are.
As I understand it, a "junior" corner monument may be a controlling monument if placed in good faith, even though it isn't exactly on the "senior" line. The new Manual has addressed this as it pertains to closing corners. 😉
Brian,
I always like to think of two extremes when thinking about these what ifs.
What if the surveying was done in the 1920's, a very rural area and the line in question was heavily overgrown with fence growing through the trees. All the markers fall in this overgrown fence line but don't make a straight line. In this case I'd hold all the found pins.
What if it's a very urban area. The senior line was created in the 1920's, the markers have a clear line of site between them. Some surveyor came along in the 1980's, had a bust in his traverse and screwed up the entire block. Nothing this guy did fits. There is no occupation to this screw ups corners. In this case, I wouldn't hold the corners that don't fit the senior line.
Most cases fall somewhere in between these two examples, and thats why you can't have a hard and fast answer.
