Outdated Equipment
Can you throw a chain ?o.O
> > When I worked in British Columbia there were very few licensed surveyors. It was typical for those few to have an office full of technicians, some of them with decades of experience under their belts. No LS got near the field but the quality of PCs and technicians was, in general, far higher than the average I now see. So, IMO, fewer licensed surveyors isn't as much as a problem as licensing a bunch of people just to fill out the ranks would be.
> >
> > The problem is economics. Fewer licensees means lower supply to fill the demand which runs up price which tends to attract more people to the profession. Right now there is still a surplus of licensees, IMO.
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> This hits on two subjects that are close to home for me. I'm Canadian, and have spent my entire career working down here; I'm licensed in two states. I received a two-year diploma in Geomatics Engineering Technology, which was mainly focused on surveying at its core, but we covered many other topics, fairly in depth (GIS, Photogrammetry, Digital Mapping, Programming, Computer Systems, etc.). There are waiting lists to get into these two year programs; in fact, in the year I began I had 63 classmates, with a waiting list of 20 more people. Graduates are paid well, despite being green, because they have all the mental tools and technical skills needed in today's industry. Meanwhile, I see the opposite happening here in the US, more of a "stick him on the rod for a couple years, and we'll pay him crap."
>
> Licensing is much different in Canada. You must pass 13 exams (or credit for some through education), each detailed in a specific area. After gaining the required amount of experience (varies by province), you then must go through an apprenticeship under a licensed surveyor; the catch is that the LS is obligated to teach and develop the apprentice, or face disciplinary action. Another catch is that licensing is not captured under a government entity, the associations are in charge of licensing, at least in most provinces.
>
> All in all, it's just a different environment north of the border when it comes to surveying. I could voice an opinion, but I've learned that nothing good comes of that down here; my state associations and NSPS are busy fighting battles that are already lost and aren't interested in being introspective. A change is greatly needed.
You mean labor isn't a burden, it's an asset.
Unless they let you buy the "construction instrument" unlock code then it works fine.
I imagine there is a vice versa "survey instruments" code. Leica is at this too now with the Icon series.
Divide and rule?
Does 12D field really work with Trimble and what are the limitations, eg GPS only?
In the Colonial States we have the Metes and Bounds system and this usually takes the young Surveyors years to figure it out. Can you say Senior Rights (say what) . It aint all about the math.
And school cant teach the in-valuable lessons, following an old salty Boundary Surveyor. All the technology in the world does not make you correct all it does is help you measure faster and easier .
Outdated Equipment
I honestly don't even know what you mean by 'throw' in that sentence. If somehow a chain became more accurate, quicker and easier to use than my Disto, I would gladly learn.
My boss use to run a tape between all his pegs (as a third check on his measurements) I used the Disto for the same job. He asked me why I wasn't taping my pegs, I asked him why he still was.
When he does a field check, he now uses the Disto.
Outdated Equipment
I honestly dont know what "pegs" mean in your sentence . Do you mean hubs, nails or Stakes .
Outdated Equipment
Also not being able to throw a chain would have cost you a few pints 30 years ago.
Outdated Equipment
> I honestly don't even know what you mean by 'throw' in that sentence.
Back in the day before the invention of the wheel surveyors didn't have reels to wind their chains up. They came up with this crazy idea instead. Not nearly as convenient as a Disto!
http://community.pobonline.com/video/18
I managed to do it once in school...pretty sure I couldn't do it again.
OK, Equivocator.
Since you seem to be intent of finding out what is in my bucket (Head). Here it is.
Circa, 1840, in Arkansas, USA, the original GLO surveyors came through, and surveyed the place. I have retraced a beaucoupe of them. And, found a number of ORIGINAL MONUMENTS. They chained with a LITERAL chain, 0.66' per link.
Along came the transit, is the early 1900's. I did learn to turn angles on a 1923 (Pre depression era Adolph Leitz Transit.) This was my life, until 1986. Along came the survey TAPE, sometime in the early 1900's It came in 2 flavors. Cut tape and Add tape. I have used both. We used to have a 100' cut tape. On a reel. I know a town, that was laid out with BOTH a chain, and with a tape.
Then, Came the theodolite.
Things pretty well remained manual, (Without batteries) until the 1970's.
Then, came the EDM. Beetle. HP etc.
Then, in the 1980's came GPS. Typically L1 post processed.
Then, L1 L2 combined. In the 1990's or so.
With a fairly through knowledge and PERSONAL experience of all the equipment, from the 1970's until today, that was used, my RETRACEMENT of a CHAIN and COMPASS survey, will have different methods as to a TRANSIT survey, whereby a 100' tape was used, and directions were taken from the compass only.
Then, it is different when retracing, somebody who used doubled angles. And, corrected the distances, for temperature.
I am not real used to doing temperature corrections. (My weak area, but it is once again, not a big amount, usually. Matters tons on building lay out.
Then, along comes the RTK job, to be retraced. Everything looks fine, except, a general slop of 0.10' to 0.15'. Then, one point is out by 5'.
I never did survey with a Jacobs Staff compass. I never did survey (except for fun) with a 66' Gunter's chain. So, the more intimately we are connected to these old tools, the better job we are going to do, with retracement. Like it or not, RETRACEMENT is what we do alot of.
This is where I feel things are coming up short. Retracement. That is where an experienced old fart can be totally invaluable. Retrace somebody who surveyed across a river, and there is a hilltop, where you can see across a river, and you had best consider. That may have been "Chained with a triangulation shot" I retraced one of those, and found about 3' of bust in the distance. BUT I knew how the original lines had been run. So, the 3' bust was not a big deal to me. It means that they made a short baseline, (maybe 300' long) and turned a angle at the other end, and wound it up, maybe 4-6 or 8 times.
I am saying that our historical connections cannot be ignored. I'd even suggest you FIND an old set of field books, and read them. Maybe even enter the data into a computer. Get a feel for it. Even better, GO RUN with your worst surveyor, in your neighborhood. You will learn stuff. Basic shortcuts. Stupid stuff. I am not saying it will improve your OPUS. But, it will improve your sense of history, and it will enable you to see things from the set of eyes, of the surveyor, who, in 1965 surveyed it. Knowledge of stuff. Like, did this surveyor typically measure to the FACE of his witness trees, or the middle? I know one, who typically measured to the FACE, however, it was ALWAYS at breast height. (I don't know where he got that, MAYBE one of you older ones can give me that). I once entered a bunch of GLO notes into a computer, (I had done a bunch of retracement already, and found some original mons) After entering it, I developed error ellipses, that were 200' in some directions, for SEARCH locations.
A GOOD surveyor, is a VERY good historian. No matter what your OPUS is.
OK?
Nate
I personally have only used with Leica gear. Full support for GNSS and TPS, Leica was much more willing to play ball with machine specs/information when they were developing 12d Field. v10 supported the (then current) Trimble TPS/GNSS and I remember them talking about the S6 and Topcon gear at he last conference too.
You could use most/any suitable bluetooth tablet with 12d field for Leica.
It helps that 12d is a fairly big player in the CAD market here as well. Quite a few survey/design firms use 12d CAD software and Field is very similar and lets you do some of that office work right there in the field.
The main limitation is probably the cost... It's still relatively new as well. They brought it out with v9 and it was pretty clunky and not all that great to use. v10 version is usable and pretty decent, especially if you are already familiar with 12d. v11 is doing it's roll out now, from what I'm told it's improved again.
Outdated Equipment
White painted wooden Peg (2x2 Suburban, 3x3 Rural) is the standard for corner marks here. 
Nail in Fence Post, Nail/Screw, Iron Pin or other marks may be used where a peg isn't suitable. Things that are clear and easy for the client to see. Usually placed with a Stake for even easier identification, though the stakes go missing pretty quickly in my experience.
Corner reference marks are your more permanent marks that we rely on for reinstatement. These are your PSMs (NGS marks), buried Iron Pins, Screw/Nail in conc/bit, Dog Spikes, DDSP, Reference Trees etc etc
Nate's examples are typically what divide and land surveyor from "land surveyor".
Knowing what lay behind you (time wise) one can better predict where a mark may have been placed but now eludes us.
If only have measurements and no material evidence, be it occupation, stream crossings etc then chances are it will be"per original"as we say here. That is original distance held.
But a little historical knowledge, some on site observations and voila. An old boundary marker not agreeing with original distance but obviously The Corner is found where intuition has led you to.
I could relate instances like this but reckon many here would appreciate what I'm talking about.
Young and uninformed (not given good tuition) could easily fall into the bearing and distance mode, never finding anything worthwhile and yet all the time closely following old boundaries but missing vital evidence.
Outdated Equipment
That's... actually impressive.
12D Down Under
12D has a very good reputation here. One advantage it started Australian so it talked our language from
inception.
> > The equipment manufacturers are increasingly becoming exclusive.
> >
> > The key component is the DATA COLLECTOR. As time rolls along, we are seeing the main manufacturers of equipment diverge.
> >
> > Leica Data collector, only working with Leica Equipment.
> >
> > Trimble Data collector, only working with Trimble Equipment.
>
> This is only applicable to Total Stations and GNSS Receivers. This was a result of the great divergence about 15 years ago. Trimble made GPS, Leica and Topcon made Total Stations, and TDS made the Data Collector. Becoming proprietary was economical... why give people the choice to buy from someone else and let it all work together. It would be like throwing a MOPAR in a Ford. This is not localized to surveying, it's in every part of your LIFE.
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> Carlson found the gap, but guess what, they aren't going to make money either if they keep supporting legacy products... it'ls like blindly re-certifying a survey you made 20 years ago for free.
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> > And it will be increasingly complex, increasingly necessary to understand geoids, and projections, and thetas, and it will need more and more savy users. I am afraid that these savy users, are YOUNG, and don't know our history, how to drag a chain, or a tape, or run a transit. And are out of touch with what a chain or a link is. So, they pincushion, stuff by 0.03'. Yup. Or 0.25'.
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> EDIT: noticed your other post... but I'll leave what I wrote for posterity's sake.
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> I went to a fancy school, and guess what? We learned to turn angles with T2s and tape distances with steel tapes... and then we got to use total stations.
>
> As far as pin-cushioning, that's laughable. I was taught boundary law at my fancy school; I've accepted corners 30 feet off. I blame pincushioning on three things: ego, willingness to learn, and willingness to teach. I have always been willing to teach, especially about RTK, baud rates, etc.; but the time to do that is not in the low-ball budget. By the way, you me need to cut corners to make up for that deficiency so we can be cheaper and "better" than surveyor B. We wont call him to ask him why accepted sureyor C's corner, which was reestablished form the original bearing trees, we're far superior... and cheaper.
:good: :good: Excellent reply!
I was thinking more of the specific limitations regarding connecting to Trimble hardware.
Will it connect to an S6 for example?
I can't find any specific info on their website.
I am aware of 12D and have used it (on PC). Am I right in thinking it started with a guy called Mick Gunter and his program TP-SETOUT? I think the computer program was called 4D model then!
I used TP-SETOUT a bit back in the day. Brilliant bit of kit running on little HP foldup computers, I bet there are still some using it. Actually I think although he had something to do with 12D, he went to work for Leica direct. Would be great to have something like that again but a bit more up to date and running on something similar to a TSC3.
My understanding is that Trimble has locked out non-Trimble (and some Trimble!) hardware from communicating with it. For some reason I am thinking this may not apply to the GPS units but I may be getting mixed up.
This is a big party pooper and unfortunately I can see Leica following their lead, apart from "approved vendors".
Let's call it the Apple business model.
If this does not apply to you
Don't worry about it.
I am battling with a couple around here, that it DOES apply to.
N
I know for sure that it connected to the older Trimble gear without any issue (Old update from ~2011) I've posted a question on their forums yesterday asking if they have an updated compatibility list, no response yet.
12d itself started with Lee and Alan but Mick is one of the main guys involved and I'm pretty sure 12d Field is his project.
Outdated Equipment
Thanks, that answers a question i've always had about "wooden pegs". I had pictured surveyors setting small pieces of 1/2" wooden dowel rod for a monument.
