Idaho. There is currently an issue with pin farms. It happens everywhere and I am unaware of any enforcable law or rule that says cut it out. What is there to enforce that will stop the practice?
I am sure the Idaho Survey Board has rules and procedures about finding and setting corners, also I am sure they are State court cases as well. What is a new rule where the Board calls the Survey to talk to him about a pin farm going to solve, If I was the Surveying getting that phone call I would just tell the Board well I am surveying in Idaho and, no one here knows how to Survey so I had to set the corner in the correct place, go call the other 2 Surveyors who didn't know where the property corner should go.?ÿ
I know plenty of Surveyors that will never pull someone else's corner, because they don't know if it was set as a reference, or might be an easement corner etc.. Then I heard of some that will pull every corner that doesnt agree with their boundary.?ÿ?ÿ
The main issue I see is two pins by the same LS set for the same corner.?ÿ To me, that is negligence and is not protecting the public in any fashion.?ÿ If you made a mistake, and need to reset your corner, then pull the other one.?ÿ All this does is make our profession look bad.?ÿ File a complaint with the board.?ÿ I'm sure the board will not be happy with this situation.
There are no rules or laws that specifically prevent or prohibit pin farms. The intent of the new rule is to get the Surveyors to talk before throwing the neighborhood in turmoil. If considering each others logic and evidence doesnt eliminate ambiguity the owners need to be involved as they are the ones who ultimately resolve true ambiguities.?ÿ
The Board is getting involved to ensure these communications occur. They won't be picking sides but will be making sure a genuine attempt at resolution happens. That beats the heck out of having the math slapped on the ground and recorded with no consideration for the damage done.
Hypothetical scenario:
Measurements and end of old suggests corner should be at A.?ÿ Deteriorating iron pipe is found a foot away at B. After looking at ground and talking to all abutters, no indication that anyone relied on the pipe, and lots of indications they are relying on the fence. A resurvey is found at the town clerk's office that has 2 digits in the distance transposed, and the pipe is consistent with the transposed distance. The surveyor who performed the resurvey has passed on.
So do you just leave the deteriorating pipe and set a new monument at A. Or do you set a correct monument at A and also set a new monument at B to perpetuate the erroneous monument, and show it as rejected in your plat?
If you reject the old pipe and the owners and surveyors of record (if any) agree it is resolved. In that case the Board won't be notified.
At that point a new map would be filed memorializing the issue. The next guy wouldnt have to repeat the exercise.
What if in Idaho the homeowner is building a fence pulls the corner, and puts it back where he thought he removed it, but he is 2 tenths off, will the board be calling homeowner as well? Can the Surveyor set the corner in the correct location? With the new proposed Idaho no pin farm rule does that corner off 2 tenths now become the corner?
Are they anymore proposed Idaho we know you are a Professional, but lets me some rules where we take away your professional judgement, like which color flagging to use, what lathes height can be used, and you can only turn right angles, because we don't know how to do follow the guy who turned left angles.
You are ignoring the entire thread. The policy deals with UNRESOLVED pin farms.
I would love to see our Profession governed by standard of care only. Unfortunately you have to have policy in place for those who refuse to do good work. If those policies interfere with folks doing a professional job they need to go away or be amended.
I have worked for and against rules based on points made on this board before and likely will again. Show me a downside that fits the proposal and I will listen.
To me it seems the Idaho board is trying to make a rule that is unnecessary, and how is just calling the Surveyor going to fix anything, if he set a pin farm then all is going to say is the other Surveyors are wrong, its just going to be 3 Surveyors saying the other 2 are wrong and everyone's time is going to be wasted. Without any fines attached to the new rule no one is going to follow it.
Idaho needs to get to the root of the cause, which from all the pin farms in the State, is to have a higher standard on who gets a Survey License, make the requirements or the test harder.?ÿ
I found a pin farm about a year ago it was 3 iron rods, 1 was capped. The one in the middle was correct. I called the Surveyor who capped the iron, he said I am so happy he is your client now, and not mine, he thought the guy moved his rod,?ÿ said no other corners were there when he set it so I pulled that corner. I didn't call the other Surveyor because, I knew it was wrong and I pulled that corner as well, and left the middle one which was uncapped, not sure who set it. I didnt need another state rule telling me how to Survey or to fix a boundary problem.?ÿ
The downside is if Idaho keeps making a rule to cover every Professional judgement call that a Professional should know how to make, might as well change it from Idaho Professional?ÿ License Surveyor, to Idaho License rule book reader Surveyor, or just Technician.
And again you didnt read anything. UNRESOLVED. If you came to a solution its done. Thats the point...
No I read it all, there are some Surveyors who think they are right no matter what, what is going to happen when 2 of them set corners next to each other? How is a phone call from the board going to help?
Cheap help, lazy Party Chief.?ÿ ??ÿ
Cheap help, lazy Party Chief.?ÿ ??ÿ
This....I'll wager that I could count on one hand (with fingers left over) ?ÿthe number of pin cushions I've seen over the last 30 years that were the result of a surveyor making a conscious decision to set a new?ÿmonument adjacent to an existing one that he or his crew had previously found.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
"Idaho needs to get to the root of the cause, which from all the pin farms in the State, is to have a higher standard on who gets a Survey License, make the requirements or the test harder."
Yes, you are mostly correct.?ÿ This wouldn't solve the problems with the current license holders (yes, a minority of them are the major problem), but it would sure help in years down the road.?ÿ Unfortunately, currently we seem to be focused only on making it easier to get a license in Idaho, and pass rules and laws to "fix" the incompetency's of those handed a license.?ÿ
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Sometimes (maybe most times) these happen because I can measure better than the last guy 🙂 or better than even I did last year. As time goes on there become more conflicts no matter how professional we think we are, I mean 50-100 years ago there were mostly original monuments, now lots get split and re-split with better and better measuring tools with no budget for research, 100 years ago you probably needed a fraction of the budget for research as there was little to think about.
The problem I see is surveyors don't explain themselves very well in the written record they leave, makes it much harder to follow in the original footsteps if there is little evidence EXCEPT maybe an old monument there is no record of and no idea how it got there.
One of my early mentors taught me (drilled it into my very being) how to write survey narratives (reports) that accompanied every survey that explained in great detail the who, what, when, why, etc. I was told not only do I do this for others, BUT for myself, so I can follow in my footsteps 20-30 years later. To ignore one of his corners you better have some real solid reason to do so and more than my measurements are better than yours! I always look at this written narrative and while the conclusion the previous surveyor came to might disagree with my conclusion, but is equally plausible and more importantly as defensible in a court, then instead of doing my own thing, I almost always take what is there. The real issue is we don't talk to each other, don't explain our reasoning and leave it to "professional" opinions which could arguably be many for the same corner and then operate as a bunch of cowboys jamming new iron in the ground instead of even considering any previous work could be as correct or more correct. That all takes time which equals money and is the root of many bad boundary monuments!
SHG
I haven't yet, I need some information from him first before I poke the bear.
