Carl,
You are correct. Thus the real problems arise. Many state Boards of Registration mandate the manual of instructions for the resurvey of lands that have long since been patented away from the federal government. Therefore one must apply the applicable rules of construction to their survey viz a viz federal rules vs state statutes concerning acquiesence by occupation, long time fences (ancient) and corners established by local surveyors and relied upon by owners etc. Makes for fun work!
Pablo
Geezz Kent
> The bottom line is there is not any surveyor in the world including me that has the authority to RESURVEY my land, move the established boundaries between me and my neighbors. End of story!
So, the surveyor you hired to survey your land wanted to actually read your deed? Man, that's got to hurt.
that's right, but the state does.
You are correct, there is no fedaral survey authority covering private lands, but there is STATE AUTHORITY and this authority governs the action of licensed land surveyors. The state licensed surveyor has no authority to deprive land owners of their constitutional rights, but this has NO bearing on the requirements and responsiblities that the state licensee is subject to follow under the rules of a particular state.
No authority
This classic quote from the Lucas Column in the current POB magazine sums it up quite nicely:
In an old settled country, the principal work of the surveyor is to retrace old boundary lines, find old corners and relocate them when lost. In performing this duty he exercises, to a certain extent, judicial functions. He usually takes the place of both judge and jury, and acting as arbiter between adjoining proprietors, decides both the law and the facts in regard to their boundary lines. He does this not because of any right or authority he may possess, but because the interested parties voluntarily submit their differences to him as an expert in such matters, preferring to abide by his decision rather than go to the law about it.
Hodgman, F., "A Manual of Land Surveying," The Hodgman Co., Climax, Mich., 1913, at 289.
No authority
> This classic quote from the Lucas Column in the current POB magazine sums it up quite nicely:
>
> In an old settled country, the principal work of the surveyor is to retrace old boundary lines, find old corners and relocate them when lost. In performing this duty he exercises, to a certain extent, judicial functions. He usually takes the place of both judge and jury, and acting as arbiter between adjoining proprietors, decides both the law and the facts in regard to their boundary lines. He does this not because of any right or authority he may possess, but because the interested parties voluntarily submit their differences to him as an expert in such matters, preferring to abide by his decision rather than go to the law about it.
>
> Hodgman, F., "A Manual of Land Surveying," The Hodgman Co., Climax, Mich., 1913, at 289.
Leon, that's in a jurisdiction though where there actually are land surveyors. In a place where the landowners determine how to interpret the writings of their deeds and surveyors aren't expected to be able to, the Hodgman quote could never apply. You may be confusing geocaching with land surveying.
Predated Michigan licensing law?
> Hodgman, F., "A Manual of Land Surveying," The Hodgman Co., Climax, Mich., 1913, at 289.
I wonder if the quote from Hodgman predated the Michigan laws authorizing the regulation of land surveying and the licensing of surveyors.
? Kent
Does a Texas surveyors license grant you resurvey authority, the right to adjudicate uncertain boundaries or move established boundaries as you decide? Must be nice to feel so much power!
Did the regulation of land surveying take away landowners rights to settle their own boundary issues. Sure they can hire a professional to help. Can a surveyor sign and acknowledge the records that get recorded. Do they let folks that can't read (landowners) sign land documents in Texas or just surveyors?
Kent, you really got some sort of deal going there. No wonder obtaining a license is such a big deal, wow!
? Kent
> Does a Texas surveyors license grant you resurvey authority, the right to adjudicate uncertain boundaries or move established boundaries as you decide? Must be nice to feel so much power!
Actually, where a boundary described in the deeds of the adjoining landowners can be located on the ground, the Texas surveyor doesn't have the authority to ignore the writing as you claim to have. He can assist the landowners in preparing corrected descriptions, of course, and they may execute appropriate instruments to alter their record boundaries if they feel the urge.
? Kent
Most of the time I research the record all the way back to patent (I even read it!). The record of title transfer is important. Unfortunately the record is far from perfect when it comes to describing the exact location of boundaries (mathematically).
Have you read the whole Lucas Column (Feb 2011)? He writes about most of what we've been debating. I think I'm his brother in spirit. Can't disagree with any of it.
If land surveying has a professional future, Lucas is showing us the way. If we want to be licensed technicians of lower math, well we've already got that and society doesn't need it. You know they license nail technicians and all sorts of stuff. Having a license doesn't really mean much. It's more to protect the licensees than anything else. The state collects a nice tax also.
? Kent
> Most of the time I research the record all the way back to patent (I even read it!). The record of title transfer is important. Unfortunately the record is far from perfect when it comes to describing the exact location of boundaries (mathematically).
Obviously, you are milking the job and wasting your time doing any research, Leon, if you have no authority to put the boundary anywhere other than the utility poles or a fence.
? Kent
The surveyor doesn't put the boundary any where (at least the ones with a clue about what they are doing). Surveyors find where it has been established by the authority (landowners or their prior grantors).
? Kent
> The surveyor doesn't put the boundary any where (at least the ones with a clue about what they are doing). Surveyors find where it has been established by the authority (landowners or their grantors).
Yes, so if all you have to do is ask the landowners to point out which fence or power pole marks their boundaries, why on earth are you wasting your time reading deeds? Sounds to me as if you're just milking the job or possibly are conflicted about whether you have any professional duty other than to do what the landowners (the authorities, you know) tell you to do. Did you ask them whether you could read their deeds, for example?
? Kent
Your line of BS never ends!
? Kent
> Your line of BS never ends!
Hey, I'm just repeating your ideas about the surveyor having to put the boundary where the landowners tell him to. I agree that when you reduce it to the simplest terms it really sounds like bullship.
I wonder LDAR?
what is your opinion of marketable title? Do you have any notion of slander of title?
?
Dane,
Kent is the expert on marketable slander. You should ask him.
Nor here.
CV
Where I live and work in the PLSS, Uncle completed all work by 1847, handed over the records to the state, and the GLO was never seen here after that time.
The majority of the PLSS, measured by number of states and population, does not fall under any oversight from Uncle anymore, no matter how much some surveyors would seem to want it.
Not the case here. Outside of early patented property-usually along the main river valleys-a land owner is most likely a co-owner in the land with the public (Federal Estate). But even if the land has no federal estate it may often have a split estate between private owners. My survey also impacts them. While we all spend time (and should) surveying possession and occupation issues, no amount of cattle grazing or fence building will transfer coal rights to a landowner. So it’s important to protect the PLSS system along with surface ownership issues. The PLSS system and the rules creating and perpetuating is not something I can ignore.
?
> Kent is the expert on marketable slander. You should ask him.
Dane, I honestly don't think that Leon has thought things through well enough to be able to answer your simple question. I get the idea that he's looking for an easy way to survey in his part of Utah. Having the landowners tell him where to locate the corners of a tract titled by reference to the government subdivision would seem to be a great shortcut.
Here’s a link to one of the newer (2001) resurveys-page one of the pdf. Although there is almost no BLM land in this portion of the township there is federal estate in all of the sections with the exception of state lands. Each new Lot# represents a 40 acre parcel with some federal interest. However the new Lot#'s do not apply to the private ownership, their deeds will still read as they did prior to the new resurvey.
The reason for all this activity are requests from the local BLM office for resurveys in areas of mineral development. If that happens in your area you might see similar BLM resurveys. The BLM guys here are extremely experienced and really good at what they do. I think they are all licensed locally and really helpful and good to work with.
http://www.wy.blm.gov/cadastral/countyplats/campbell/t56nr73w.pdf
