I'm trying to figure out the western side of our land line and had some questions for any surveyors. Are section lines always straight from one corner of the sections to the next? I found supposed markers for both corners of the section, I just don't know if it's possible for there to be a bend in a section line (like #2) or if they are always straight from A to B for example (like #1)?
Also are sections always lined up at the corners (like #1), or can they be offset sometimes (like #2)? What about quarter sections, are they always lined up at the corners, or can they be offset (like at "D" below)? Any help would be appreciated.
I wish we could be more help. But all of those could be examples of the work done by the original survey. And generally, straight-lining a section from one corner to the next is not a good move unless exhaustive research (in and out of the field) has been done properly.
Even the BLM's own Manual of Instructions cannot give you a simple answer to your question. The answer rests within the original notes and the footsteps of the original surveyor.
All of those are possible.
We really need the Section, Township, Range and initial point to have any idea at all.
I agree with Paden, and will elaborate a bit, although I'm not an LS.
A section is most often an 8-sided figure, with half-mile straight lines, not mile-long ones, because the original PLSS surveys usually marked every half mile and of course their measurements (any measurements) were not perfect. This is not universal, however.
Sections most often line up with the adjacent ones, 4 sections sharing a common corner. However at the edge of a township (and in many places the edge of a county will be the edge of its townships) it depends on the instructions in effect when the original survey was done and where the township falls in the larger scheme. There are base lines, correction lines, etc. where the surveys were "started afresh" to avoid accumulation of convergence of the meridians that would otherwise leave sections getting smaller and smaller as you go north. At these places the sections south of the line will tend to be a little smaller than the ones north of that line and the misalignment accumulates as you get further east or west from the starting point.
And bear in mind that there are various circumstances that will leave the lines of ownership a little different from the section line as that section line might be reconstructed for other purposes.
All this stuff is the reason you need a surveyor knowledgeable about your particular area.
You will get alot more specific answers, if you tell us the section, township range, state, county.
I'm in AL west of the Huntsville meridian and north of the Freeman Line. On the original Plat map from the 1800s all the section lines are drawn perfectly straight and all the corners line up. The more modern topo maps are the same for my area. I'll try to find the original 1800s section line heading info and post that.
BM1002, post: 395488, member: 12198 wrote: I'm in AL west of the Huntsville meridian and north of the Freeman Line. On the original Plat map from the 1800s all the section lines are drawn perfectly straight and all the corners line up. The more modern topo maps are the same for my area. I'll try to find the original 1800s section line heading info and post that.
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/search/default.aspx#searchTabIndex=0&searchByTypeIndex=1
Here are the notes below for the section just to the west. It says Beginning at the North East corner, thence
South 1å¡ 15' East. Where it says "Beginning" would be "A" on the drawing I made at the top. Can anyone decipher what this writing says and means? All I know is the line of my interest "A" to "B" has a bearing of South 1å¡ 15' East. Is this section line straight from A to B based on what you all read below?
A line run with a compass is not straight, I guarantee it.
Yeah I definitely know that, it would require RTK GPS or alike to get high accuracy. I'm just wondering based on this old past original survey information, how likely is the line supposed to be surveyed straight with no bends from A to B?
BM1002, post: 395499, member: 12198 wrote: Yeah I definitely know that, it would require RTK GPS or alike to get high accuracy. I'm just wondering based on this old past original survey information, how likely is the line supposed to be surveyed straight with no bends from A to B?
I meant compass use by the U.S. Deputy Surveyor in the 19th century. The lines are almost certainly not straight. The Field Notes fprobably do not reflect what they actually did in the field.
Oh ok.
So are you saying if a property corner marker could be found at the "bend", then that would override a modern day straight section line survey between A and B? Thus that would mean the section line actually has a bend in reality just because old surveys were not very accurate.
It is possible.
A lot depends upon how the Alabama Courts have ruled in similar cases.
It seems to me Alabama ignores the quarter section corners (often called half mile posts) but I'm not certain of that.
The quarter sections here seem to be rarely divided evenly within the sections, I think this is mostly because the sections sides are never precisely 1 mile in length on each side like they were intended to be long ago.
I wish there was more info out there on section lines, but thank you everyone for the help given.
BM1002, post: 395499, member: 12198 wrote: Yeah I definitely know that, it would require RTK GPS or alike to get high accuracy.
I'm sure everyone here will agree with that lol.
JBN ARK, post: 395507, member: 11757 wrote: I'm sure everyone here will agree with that lol.
Yes, for sure lol. : )
Come Monday morning, some bright Alabamans will check in, discover this thread and offer valid comments. Be patient.
BM1002, post: 395479, member: 12198 wrote: I'm trying to figure out the western side of our land line and had some questions for any surveyors. Are section lines always straight from one corner of the sections to the next? I found supposed markers for both corners of the section, I just don't know if it's possible for there to be a bend in a section line (like #2) or if they are always straight from A to B for example (like #1)?
Also are sections always lined up at the corners (like #1), or can they be offset sometimes (like #2)? What about quarter sections, are they always lined up at the corners, or can they be offset (like at "D" below)? Any help would be appreciated.
The answer will depend on several factors.
1. Are you near a township corner? If so then yes the corners are sometimes offset.
2. Has their been a court judgement?
3. Are you sure you have found the correct corners?
With question one you could be experiencing a township correction and or a section correction. The line you have in drawing two looks like the previous surveyor ( not the original surveyor ) did not understand corrections as per the time period the original work was done and decided to make it "correct". As for my number 2 we have a system where courts that know nothing of land law make judgements and sometimes those judgements lead to "new" section lines. I have worked in the Huntsville and surrounding area for eighteen years. I can say without a doubt that the sections in and around the mountain areas are neither square nor parallelograms. In reading original notes if you will email me the section township and range and the notes you have I would be more than happy to decipher to the amount I can. I will be at the ASPLS conference Wednesday through Friday if you are there feel free to bring the info with you and contact me. My email is mack00079@yahoo.com.
It can get complicated (as seen above). There is never a "one size fits all" rule. Generally speaking the original section and quarter-section corners were set on a straight line with the equipment they had at the time. When we remeasure it with modern equipment, we find not-so-straight lines. We do however treat the original locations of the monuments as controlling, not the modern math.
How to determine if we are in the same location as the original monuments, what rules and overrules in a particular situation, and where the corners actually are is what we are all about.
The cadastre is a jig saw puzzle. If we correct found monuments to fit the math on an individual basis, the edges will no longer match.
