Question for New York City Surveyors

Even if someone knew where i could get some info on this I would be appreciative!

Look for Angelo Fiorenza aka "Sicilian Cowboy" on here. He has spoken of this subject before. It was possibly on this board, or it may have been on the old POB/rpls.com message board.

Carl

This will porbably not answer your question but here is a very nice and precise article by Scott Zelenak on the datums of NYC.

Datums of the Big Apple

as for your question, I think that Cowboy aka King of Queens can help.

i've never surveyed in new york, but providence, rhode island has the same wonderful phenomenon. i do not recall the exact error, but it resulted in every layout's width being long by a few tenths.

Contact Ken Stigner at Stantec. If he can't help you he'll point you in the right direction.

A long chain sets long and measures short.
jud

someone new to providence would go nuts, then would have to go talk to a survey chicken, who else would you call upon to get to the other side of the road?

Local Standard in NYC (Long)

This is what those Long Island guys get for coming into the city.....;-)

Here in NYC, many blocks may have a "local standard", that is, dimensions which vary from the record block dimensions. The cause? There are many: original tapes too long or too short; original platting errors; original layout errors..... who knows?

The main source of the differences is that in 1898, when the five boroughs were consolidated, many communities had already been laid out, particularly in Brooklyn (which had numerous Dutch and English settlements, such as Gravesend, Flatbush, New Utrecht, etc., before combining with the City of Williamsburgh to become the City of Brooklyn from 1854 to 1898) and Queens (which was a collection of cities and villages, like Long Island City, Flushing, Jamaica, Astoria, Maspeth, etc., etc., from the before the Revolution to 1898). Don't forget, settlement in Brooklyn (Midwout = Midwood and Vlacke Bos = Flatbush) started around 1624, and Queens (Vlissingen = Flushing) in 1635.

Each of these communities had their own public and private surveyors and engineers who laid out streets, subdivisions, public works, etc. After the Consolidation in 1898, the city formed five boroughs, each with a Borough President, which had a Topographical Bureau, responsible for all mapping and public works (this was the case until 1961, when a new City Charter was adopted). These topographical bureaus set out to compile the official city map, in a fashion similar to how it was done in Manhattan, thus finalizing all city streets and blocks so that orderly development could go on (See the Google entry for “The Commissioners Plan of 1811” for more on this.)

Dozens of survey crews went out to their own individual areas and mapped the city, some of which is mentioned in Scott Z's Datums of New York series from the POB website. The order of surveys (don't forget this is from 1898 to about 1930) averaged about 1:30,000, and all the errors were thrown into the streets which formed the borders of the surveyed areas. This is why (especially in Queens), one sees streets of "irregular width" or "double monumented streets" on the Final Section Maps. If you are working on a double monumented street.....don't try to take lines from one side over to the other.....the errors are all thrown into that street.

Unfortunately, when the city surveyors tried to match many of the blocks, they found numerous discrepancies. A 600 foot by 200 foot block may have been found to be 600.36 feet by 200.12 feet. However, in many cases, there were already houses, or at least platted lots on these blocks. The city produced the maps in “United States Standard”, but the deed information still remained in the “Local Standard”. City streets, which are owned in fee, are also sometimes subject to the local standard. I have surveyed many streets that are 60.06 feet wide, particularly in Whitestone and College Point. But you can see these on the final section maps.

Some neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Queens (New Lots, Canarsie, Richmond Hill, Ozone Park, among others) have a different standard north-south than the standard east-west. If it's downtown or Brooklyn Heights, it could be a matter of an old Dutch surveyors dimension conflicting with an old English surveyor’s dimension (their chains and links were apparently of different lengths). In any event, usually the standards occur in old town/village areas, and are not necessarily the same from area to area.

I've seldom seen a standard in the Bronx. Don't work in Staten Island, so I don't know. Whatever the cause, the equation seeks to match current measurement equipment and techniques (i.e., U.S. Standard) to the old subdivision and municipalities record maps. In other words, it’s another method of apportionment.

Upstate surveyors scoff at city surveyor’s explanations of this, often accusing us of having "elastic tapes". In reality, as Mr. Schick has discovered, you really need to know what the standard is to do a proper survey. I believe Philadelphia has a similar situation, where there are certain "city surveyors" (I don't know if they are called that) who handle certain areas of the city, and who have to tell you what the standard is in any particular neighborhood, otherwise your survey is inaccurate.

Generally, a local standard can be on the order of around an inch or so to each hundred feet (100.00' Local = 100.08' US, for example). In Manhattan, almost every block has a "standard". On survey maps, they are usually only noted on architectural surveys, where the actual dimensions must be known to fit a building onto a lot. For title work, the numbers are generally not noted on surveys by the "big three" surveying firms. Generally speaking, only the firms have the answers to what they are. Usually, Manhattan block standards are very small, on the order of less than 1/2 inch per 100 feet. Downtown below 14th Street may be an exception.

In some cases, where the standard is very large, it may merely be an error or blunder, such as a citation of an old deed distance that is no longer relevant, or perhaps a tax map dimension that has somehow survived in the record.

Usually, your biggest hints as to the Local Standard are the dimensions called out in the deeds, the tax maps, and comparison to the Final Section Maps at the Topo Bureau.

Local Standard in NYC (Long)

It sounds a lot like the same results you would get when you proportion between original block corners. ?

Local Standard in NYC (Long)

Very nice, Angelo. Very enlightening.

BTW, I would never scoff!

Rick

Thanks all for the input, especially Mr. Fiorenza. Thankyou for taking your time to provide me with the history lesson, I appreciate it. Very interesting as well as helpful for our survey. Not really looking to break out into your neck of the woods but doing the survey for one of our clients out here who happens to own property in queens as well.... If you ever need anything out on the island just ask, be happy to repay the favor! Thanks again!:-D
Matt

No problem.....so long as I can bring my "elastic tape". 😉

You'll have to bring your "elastic tape", we don't have them out here!;-)

Are you from....

North Shore Or South Shore of LI?

Are you from....

actually central Long Island but we survey primarily Nassau and Suffolk counties.