Kent
I wasn't approaching this subject as a political issue. I seem to have wandered into a hornets' nest that I didn't know existed. I have often thought that the CA Professional Land Surveyors Act should be completely dumped and re-written. The more I hear about Texas statutes, the more I like ours.
Kent
> I wasn't approaching this subject as a political issue.
Well, it's a political issue in the several states where there seems to be a coordinated attack upon the licensed professions. I mention this detail since you seem not to have noticed.
Kent
What I meant was that I have not been following what the "crook" wants the licensing board in your state to do that they don't want to do and he wants to abolish it, or whatever the situation is. I was merely engaging in a little repartee involving written statutes and their potential interpretations. I should just probably shut up now because this issue is way more charged than I thought. Oh yeah, I say that now, didn't I say that a couple hours ago?
Kent
> What I meant was that I have not been following what the "crook" wants the licensing board in your state to do that they don't want to do and he wants to abolish it, or whatever the situation is.
Yes, that is basically the situation in Texas. Our small-time crook of a governor has decided that if the licensing board won't do as he tells them to, he'll just abolish the board.
I'd mention this crook's political affiliation and his beauty parlor hair-do, but that would be pointing out an obvious political fact, and I'm sure we don't want that.
Kent
The political affiliation might be kind of interesting but the hairdo could lead to all kinds of important revelations. Please excuse me for not keeping up on Texas politics. I didn't even know GW was the governor until he started running for President. Then I said, huh? Oh, never mind, this is a land surveying thread.
Kent
> Oh, never mind, this is a land surveying thread.
Yes, the thread deals with a land surveying topic not some small-time crook with a beauty parlor hair-do like Texas Governor Rick Perry who has announced that abolishing the licensing board for surveyors is at the top of his agenda. After all, Perry is a dude who literally has never worked a day in his life other than on a state payroll. How, on a state salary, he's managed to acquire the millions that his financial statements show he has is more than adequate evidence of his actual status.
According to one of the surveyors at US Surveyor up the road in SW Indiana,
the Texas Board went after them because they did not have a registered surveyor
in Texas. Of course, a bunch of other BOR have went after US Surveyor because they
do a bunch of brokering of surveys.
Their attorney shook up the closet of skeletons at the Texas board and found
the head of the board committed adultery with his lady draftsperson resulting
in divorce. The head of the board had a rodman killed by electrocution.
The head of the board is currently getting sued.
Another china man on the board had a vendetta against him because he knew
about some super screw-ups made by the china man doing a railroad row survey
in Houston.
US Surveyor hired a registered surveyor and the board members with dirty laundry
quickly and happily dropped the investigation.
As Jesus said to the crowd ready to stone the whore, "If any of you are without
sin, throw the first stone." The crowd quickly left.
> A bunch of stuff
So, are we to understand that you think that survey brokers like, say, "US Surveyor" perform a worthwhile function? Why?
Okay let's get the facts straight, here's how it went down:
Paul Kwan was on the Board of Professional Land Surveying.
The flood plain manager for the City of Houston Mike Loomis was the one who filed a complaint. Mr. Kwan despite knowing it was a bogus claim continued to pursue this issue for almost 1 year. It cost me well over 15 thousand dollars to defend.
When the Board finally dropped the complaint I sued Mike Loomis the flood plain manager for slander among other things. This dragged on for almost 1 year with the city of Houston (the chief surveyor Jack Child) producing one lie after another about me costing me 10 of thousands of dollars to address. I finally dropped the suit because I simply ran out of money. The whole thing cost me over 35 thousand dollars. It almost ruined my business. I opened in 92 and this first came up in 97, I had to drop it in 99.
To this day I hold great grudge against the individuals as the house in question now stands 3' higher than any house built before or after. The claim was that I blew the elevation certificate low 1/2 of a foot. It was extraordinarily high already, however I was simply using the correct benchmark as required in the Flood study for Harris County, others had not used the correct one, and this was very embarrassing for the powers that were at the time.
Ralph
>
> Sure, the measurements by which elevations are determined are survey data in Texas, but they aren't "professional surveying" as defined by the licensing statute and subject to regulation under it unless they deal with property boundaries.
>"Professional surveying" means
>the practice of land, boundary, or property surveying or other similar professional practices.
The way I read your diagrammed Texas definition: if someone was to survey the elevation of land to determine whether it is within the boundaries of a floodplain or any other regulatory boundary... then providing an elevation certificate based upon those measurements is professional surveying in Texas.
>
> The way I read your diagrammed Texas definition: if someone was to survey the elevation of land to determine whether it is within the boundaries of a floodplain or any other regulatory boundary... then providing an elevation certificate based upon those measurements is professional surveying in Texas.
No, you'd be wrong. Land boundary or property surveying deals with the boundaries of real property estates, which flood plains of course are not.
>
> No, you'd be wrong. Land boundary or property surveying deals with the boundaries of real property estates, which flood plains of course are not.
well I have never read the complete definition for Texas, only the version you posted, that had a comma between land and boundary indicating two separate things.
But I did not see anywhere in your post that would indicate that only real property estates were covered. Not including administrative or regulatory boundaries seems to be a very myopic view of our profession.
>
> well I have never read the complete definition for Texas, only the version you posted, that had a comma between land and boundary indicating two separate things.
>
> But I did not see anywhere in your post that would indicate that only real property estates were covered.
If you actually read the definition of "professional surveying" as set forth in Texas statute, there really isn't much doubt but that the definition pertains to :
the practice of land, boundary, or property surveying or other similar professional practices.
>
> If you actually read the definition of "professional surveying" as set forth in Texas statute, there really isn't much doubt but that the definition pertains to :
>
> the practice of land, boundary, or property surveying or other similar professional practices.
I read that.
and I see the practice of surveying land, surveying boundaries, or surveying property, or other similar professional practices.
that makes three separate things plus other similar stuff. I still cannot see where only real property estates are covered by your current regulations.
Kent
No more Presidents from Texas, PLEASE! (of either affiliation).
> > the practice of land, boundary, or property surveying or other similar professional practices.
>
> I read that.
>
> and I see the practice of surveying land, surveying boundaries, or surveying property, or other similar professional practices.
>
> that makes three separate things plus other similar stuff. I still cannot see where only real property estates are covered by your current regulations.
Actually, land, boundary, and property surveying are synonymous. The terms are used in surveying texts to mean the identical thing. So that part of the definition boils down to "boundary surveying or other similar professional practices".
The purpose of the definition is to define what the profession consists of, so the "other similar professional practices" adds nothing beyond "land, boundary, and property surveying". If you can think of a professional practice that is similar to boundary surveying, chances are it's boundary surveying.
I do not have anything to do with brokers. I have hard
enough time collecting from my own clients.
If the discussion below is correct, his attorney screwed up.
The City of Houston surely has very deep pockets.
Kent
I'd say that the second you put your signature and seal on the FEMA flood cert, then you're liable at a board level for any mistakes that you may have made in and to the flood cert.
Sad but true, but the standards ALSO say that the public can rely on the surveyors signature and seal.
Yes the definition is a little tough to digest,but you must take the entire set of rules into account along with the definition.
In other words,I disagre with you that TBPLS doesn't have the right to enforce or work on flood certs. Since the board punished those folks,'it's safe to assume that the board also agrees with me and not you.
I'm telling ya', you need to make a run for the board so you can fix all this mess you say the board has done wrong.
Kent
I wonder what the surveyor is guaranteeing. Does the Texas Board have
any standards besides FEMA's?
Kent
> I'd say that the second you put your signature and seal on the FEMA flood cert, then you're liable at a board level for any mistakes that you may have made in and to the flood cert.
I know that is a common opinion, but there is no basis for it in Texas statutes.
This is how the board's authority is described in the Occupations Code:
Sec. 1071.151. RULEMAKING AUTHORITY.
(a) The board may adopt and enforce reasonable and necessary rules and bylaws to perform its duties under this chapter and to establish standards of conduct and ethics for land surveyors.
(b) The board by rule shall prescribe the minimum standards for professional surveying.
(c) The board by rule shall establish the enforcement process for a violation of this chapter or a board rule.
Since the preparation of FEMA flood certificates is not an activity that falls within the definition of professional surveying, it isn't subject to the regulation of the TBPLS. The TBPLS simply cannot lawfully adopt a rule attempting to regulate how level surveys in connection with FEMA flood certificates are performed when they are not real property boundary surveying.
> Sad but true, but the standards ALSO say that the public can rely on the surveyors signature and seal.
The reason why a surveyor would place his or her seal of registration on a flood certificate is as an advertisement to members of the public that he or she had sufficient competence at boundary surveying to be registered as an RPLS in Texas. Just because the preparation of FEMA elevation certificates isn't professional surveying doesn't mean that a professional surveyor wouldn't ordinarily be expected to have some competence at making the survey measurements that it requires. The seal and signature is an advertisement of a certain type of experience and ability. But the TBPLS is specifically prohibited by the statute that created it from regulating advertising.
The Occupations Code provides as follows:
Sec. 1071.157. RULES RESTRICTING ADVERTISING OR COMPETITIVE BIDDING.
(a) The board by rule shall prescribe standards for compliance with Subchapter A, Chapter 2254, Government Code.
(b) Except as provided by Subsection (a), the board may not adopt rules restricting advertising or competitive bidding by a person regulated by the board except to prohibit false, misleading, or deceptive practices by that person.
(c) The board may not include in its rules to prohibit false, misleading, or deceptive practices by a person regulated by the board a rule that:
..(1) restricts the use of any advertising medium;
..(2) restricts the person's personal appearance or use of the person's voice in an advertisement;
..(3) relates to the size or duration of an advertisement by the person; or
..(4) restricts the person's advertisement under a trade name.
In other words, the only basis for regulating FEMA elevation certificates prepared by a Texas RPLS would be if it were shown that false, misleading, or deceptive practices were at issue. Leveling from an erroneous benchmark is of itself hardly a false, misleading, or deceptive practice where the surveyor believes in good faith that the benchmark elevation is correct as published.
> In other words,I disagre with you that TBPLS doesn't have the right to enforce or work on flood certs. Since the board punished those folks,'it's safe to assume that the board also agrees with me and not you.
Yes, but the problem is that the disciplinary rules that were cited as the basis for the action don't actually provide any lawful basis for the action. I'm going to guess that the registrants either didn't have legal counsel or didn't have very good legal counsel.
The board was obviously under great political pressure to do something. I think it was a terrible mistake for the board to have injected themselves in a matter that was outside their statutory authority, though. The proper response would have been to inform the politicos that the Occupations Code should be changed to include the preparation of FEMA elevation certificates within the definition of "professional surveying" and that until that happens, the TBPLS has been left without authority in the matter.
