Consider this scenario Neil, related to me at a seminar lunch break:
You make a survey for a buyer 10 years ago.
That guy sells the house and passes on your survey, hell, he even signs a "homeowner's affidavit of survey".
The buyer sees a privacy fence on your plat, located on his lot 1' inside the rear line.
The buyer tells his contractor that, according to your survey, the fence back there is 1' off the line and to pull back 5' from the fence and build his 3 car garage with a second floor office and mother-in-law suite. This should be more than adequate for the 3' detached structure setback.
As they are putting the shingles on the new garage, the neighbor to the rear returns from an extended vacation and comes to explain that the fence they have used to do the new work is actually not 1' off the rear line, but 10' on HIS property. You see, the fence you showed was blown down 8 years ago and your client decided not replace it. The neighbor did like the privacy and decided to erect a new fence. He located it 10' inside the rear line to stay out of a drainage easement.
The ensuing lawsuit said the the survey showed the fence in the wrong place. The buyer, because he didn't have a new survey made, had an exclusion in his title policy for "anything a current survey would reveal", no help there. So he felt he HAD to sue everyone even remotely associated with this project in order to recover his costs + attorney fees.
Now, certainly there are questions as to your liability in this incident, but an actual surveyor did end up spending a boatload of money just to defend his survey in court. The sellers were also somehow dragged into this because of the affidavit they signed.
A new or "refreshed" survey by you or anyone else could have saved heartache and a ton of money all the way around.
Neil,
I can only offer what I do. I have had my own firm for 7 years now. I often have requests to update old surveys. I rarely give out copies of work after the survey has been done. I have even refused to give original owners copies. They paid for my opinion and service and they got that and the map at the time of our contract.
I do not sell a lifetime subscription to copies of my maps. (but I would if someone would pay a monthly stipend for that service)
when they tell me nothing has changed, I say, that's great, the hourly rate for field visit (min charge applies) then will be well worth having the updated survey.
I totally disagree with the idea that as soon as the map leaves my office it's not mine. That is my professional opinion on that signed and sealed map. True, I can't control what happens to that map, but if my seal is on it, it's still mine. (IMNSHO)
Andy
Colorado Real Estate Commission Says
Colorado Division of Real Estate Says-
The Colorado Real Estate Commission recently made a position concerning real estate brokers using and having property owners sign an affidavit with relation to past work done by surveyors.
JB -- I agree with you. The survey is needed. The point I was trying to make is how do we as surveyors convince Joe homeowner that a new survey is needed. What more can we do to educated the public to this point? The real estate agent doesn't care if the fence was reconstructed in a different place. That could cost them a sale if the buyer finds out he has 10' less property.
Andy -- I agree with you as well. I have given out copies of old surveys from my office. But, I do so on a case by case basis. I will give one to an original client. Sometimes, I will give a subdivision or survey to just about anyone, if it is recorded. I figure they could just as easily go to the courthouse and copy it. Why not give them a copy from my office. I will however, NOT give them a copy of an old survey with an original stamp or seal on it. Which basically means, the copy they have can be used for pretty much nothing but their own use.
What I have tried to do is to convince the brokers, not the general public. The brokers are the prism through which the light of our service passes. They are the person to whom the buyer turns and asks “Do we need a survey?”. These days most of the brokers do not want anything to screw up a deal so they just say no. I try to make them understand that the survey isn’t just a picture of the lot, but is an integral part of the title insurance. Would they tell the buyer not to get a title insurance policy? No, because they can’t. So, if the title insurance company charges the same premium with a survey as they do without, and you’re going to end up with a policy anyway, why not get the full coverage by having a new survey done?
I also try to explain that most things that are discovered during a survey can be dealt with fairly easily before closing with an agreement, easement or removal of the offending element. AT THE SELLER’S COST. The alternative is for your buyer to discover something after closing. Their first call will be to you Mr. Broker and one of the first questions will be “Why did you tell me we didn’t need a survey?”.
So, how many referrals do you think you’ll get from that unhappy camper? This is a referral oriented business, take a long view.
I get this word out to the RE offices in my area by offering to talk at their sales meetings. Someone in that office has to set up meeting programs and is usually pretty happy when I call. It’s one item off their to-do list.
We all have the responsibility to get out in the communities we serve and make them understand the value in what we do.
A funny thing:
Every time I do one of these talks, as I am chatting with the brokers before or afterwards, these folks, to a person and looking me dead in the eye, tell me that they would NEVER have a client or customer buy a property without having a survey. Bullshot.
Keep in mind that you are dealing with salespeople here.
Now that is the answer I was looking for. I too have been trying to "educate" the local re agents and attorneys as well. I also have to say not in every instance is a new survey required and I am also not afraid to tell them when this is the case as well. It does go a long way toward establishing credibility with these folks as they usually have a different agenda than I do. In my area, as in all areas, there are a few bad eggs, but for the most part the real estate agents and attorneys are all pretty good about most of these things and I don't really see alot of the problems that are griped about. About the only time they happen is when it is someone from out of the area doing the deals.
I do Boundary Surveys that will be good as long as records are kept for any and all to use anytime, Boundary's don't change without supporting evidence but even if they do, that Boundary Survey I did 20 years ago is still good and has useful data recorded on it when ownership lines or further subdivision has taken place. What does change are the uses of the lands inside the boundary, I do mortgage inspections that are stamped and dated, they are for the use of the parties that commissioned it only. I used to show improvements on boundary surveys but no longer do unless there is a direct relationship that effects the boundary and I may show the locations of improvement for the purpose of using them as references only. It takes two drawings when the tract has not been surveyed or no record on site evidence can be found, one Boundary Survey that is recorded and one mortgage inspection which is not recorded but is Stamped, I will use found evidence of an existing Boundary Survey as the base for a mortgage inspection, I will not resurvey a boundary when there already is one in the files and acceptable evidence is found on site. Your Statutes won't allow that, then quit bitch-en and get Statute changed, then stop re-surveying the same lines over and over again expecting everyone who knows what is going on not to do everything within their power to avoid having a Surveyor involved with any transaction.
jud
"I will not resurvey a boundary when there already is one in the files and acceptable evidence is found on site."
. . . Isn't what you're describing a "re"-survey?
I'm assuming that if you "determine", that evidence found by you is acceptable, then you've made an opinion in respect to the boundary lines.
> Private surveys conducted for a specific client for a specific reason, usually for due diligence purposes during a real estate contract period are being reused many years after the survey was prepared.
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> For some reason (usually under the idea of saving money) many years later, title companies and realtors are using old, out dated surveys to fulfill contract stipulations for new real estate transactions.
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> Apparently this practice is legal and customary.
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> Title insurance companies provide clear title and take exception (not providing coverage for) to survey related deficiencies under the blanket of using old surveys done for others that are outdated, but yet leave the survey exception within the title insurance policy.
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> Out of 100 title policies written, 95 have a survey exception (no protection)
> Out of 100 r/e closings, 18 have a new survey
Interesting....in the states I work in there are no requirements for a surveyor to be involved in land transactions in any form. That said, your survey is a snap-shot in time and if it is public record, its public record. If the title company chooses to use it to suit whatever big-corporation driven checklist they use then that should be their choice and risk.
My CPA...
discaims all liability. I have to sign a form agreeing to this before he will prepare them. My attorney does essentially the same thing. I don't go to the doctor so have no info on that...
Private...
Private survey? What is that? How can a survey be "private"? I have yet to find a property boundary line that only has one side, so I'm a bit mystified...
Private...
:good:
Private...
Equals more fun and games from secret squirrel nation. I love my recording state.
Private...
Mystifys me too, Jim.
Private...
😉 Surveys are private and should be hidden from public view!
Ya right.
Private...
Private in the since that you, the certifying surveyor are extending your certification, concerning the location of the improvements on the date of your signature and seal.