Let me start by saying that I am not trying to start an argument. I am simply asking for my own information. Up until recently, I have avoided the Lightsquared posts as I don't know much of anything about it. I started reading them over the past few days and I think I am still as confused as I was before I read them. Let me preface this by stating that I am the owner of a small surveying company. I had GPS at one time. The area I live in and the jobs which we got were not very conducive to using GPS. It seemed we spent more time screwing wtih the equipment than if we just used a TS. Now, everything we do is exclusively with TS. I read a previous post that "the lack of GPS will cost jobs". How is this so? 15 years ago there was no GPS and it seemed there were more surveyors employed than are now. I understand it will slow productivity, but my thought is that it would create more jobs for surveyors. Once again, I do not want to start any arguments. I am simply asking for information and to hear the differnt sides of the story.
Just my uneducated thoughts on the costing jobs bit; Companies that rely on GPS for machine control will not be able to bid jobs because they do not have operators capable of reading/using grade stakes or holding a grade over varying conditions, instead having relied upon GPS and the hydraulics doing all the heavy lifting.
Beyond that I think it is that the skill sets used 15 years ago are rapidly disappearing with more reliance upon GPS for positioning in coordinate systems (instead of traversing in from known points). I know there is more and with my limited (very!) experience I may be speaking out of turn however this is just how I see a lack of GPS "costing jobs".
No jobs are going to be created in this economy, even if the Lightsquared issue is defeated. Unless a company's GPS solution is paid off, they still incur monthly payments or service fees. Just glancing at the numbers, a GPS solution is almost comparable to a hired hand. Its just a trade off of sorts.
It will cost jobs in that tasks that are not feasible without GPS will not be done.
For instance, you can forget about utility locations for GIS.
It will also cause the cost of surveys to go up. Know what that means? That means people will be screaming to their state legislators that surveys have gotten too expensive and the standards need to be lowered.
I agree if surveyors don’t have the use of GPS it would be an inconvenience but I don’t see anyone going out of business because of it. We have plenty of other tools to replace GPS if needed. The ones who will be affected are the ones building the GPS units and the companies that use GPS for machine control etc. that would not have a clue how to do it without GPS.
As an equipment dealer it would cost us and i am sure every other dealer jobs, cuts down on manufacturing, will destroy gps machine control. Every dealer I talk too and when I talk to my Leica reps the one question that gets brought up in every conversation is "have you heard any more news on lightsquared?".
I look at it this way....all those guys walking around by themselves finding and setting corners would then have to hire a real assistant or two, at least one of which would have to be trainable to run an instrument.
No GPS would mean more traversing, more labor-intensive surveying. No more flood certs without differential leveling, etc., etc., etc.
As Tommy Young stated,
some functions which are easily done with GPS will be passed over as not being worth the additional costs. Surveying in general will still be done as it was prior to GPS.
While I truly like having my GPS units as a tool to use when they will save time, my more immediate concern would be the impact on agriculture.
One local farm operation just spent several hundreds of thousands in upgrades and are running the precision units which will be affected. Now I am not a farmer, so don't take this as gospel, but one of the reasons food costs are where they are currently at is the continuing efficiency of farmers in getting the most return from a crop. That entails keeping costs down. As I understand it, there is a SIGNIFICANT savings to be realized in fertilizer and seed when a tractor is using GPS.
All of the above are true. I would hate to have just invested a half-a-million in GPS equipment and be told it is now rendered useless. There is also a big impact to farmers and many other professions. Think about the networks that people have invested in all over as well.
However, your point is well taken. New technology is part of the reason so many people are now out of work. It has happened in every field and some people are hurting real bad right now: and we want our bigger and better toys that are replacing jobs.
People making money on investing and selling at a profit year after year is gone. The nationwide pyramid scheme is over and we need to start figuring out how people can be productive and turn out a product that has real value.
Just some general thoughts here,
Tom
Another thing, creating jobs via "destroying technology" is always a loser. Yes, you've created jobs, but you've also destroyed capital that could be doing other more productive things that would, in turn, employ people.
For an example, look at the computerized switchboard. Tens of thousands (or more) switchboard operators were put out of work with the invention of the computerized switchboard. How many of you think we'd be better off with all those switchboard operators? We'd have higher phone bills and longer waits to talk to people.
As Tommy Young stated,
There is. You can map your soil quality, weed locations, and yields. You can then configure your fertilizer, herbicide and pestcide application so that it is only used where needed most.
What I will say on the issue of LS vs. GPS is this:
If Lightsquared "wins" and begins building towers, we'll all know where and when they are being built.
With that notice, you can bet that on every other Saturday or so I'll be burning as many control points as I can along my little coastal town.
Maybe that's a good idea even without LS on the horizon...
> I know of quite a few land surveyors who have a small shops that are compettive becuase of tools like GPS. Would they just hire more staff? Not neccisarily cause a lot of the work might end up going to the bigger firms with volume/price advantages.
Possibly it is just the area I work in then. We are a small shop. I had GPS. I couldn't afford it. We mostly due small boundary jobs (0 - 5 acres). On construction jobs I could see the value of it. It seemed like on the boundary jobs, we would get the job done just as quick without the GPS. Now for stakeout, I can understand the value, but I could never see sending a 1-man crew out anyhow. I had a hard enough time lugging that 7 foot pole around with me, much less a bag of stakes, hammer, pins, and everything else needed. Also, another reason against 1-man crews is safety. Anyhting can happen in the field and it usually happens in areas with no cell service. Once again, it may be a function of where I am located or maybe we are lowballers and don't know it!! 🙂
> With that notice, you can bet that on every other Saturday or so I'll be burning as many control points as I can along my little coastal town.
>
Let me start by saying that I have never done it but always thought about it. Don't simply remove the control points as they will just as easily be reset with a little inconvenience. Actually move them all a few feet in different directions and really confuse the heck out of the crew.
These are kind of the answers I was looking for. However, I have a few other questions...
Will this affect the handheld GPS devices or the ones used in cars for navigation?
Not to degrade surveyors, but if these towers will wipe out the military's GPS capabilities, I would think that there would be a whole lot more powerful people than a surveyors' lobby trying to stop this.
What benefit will LS offer?
Thank you all for educating me.
Ahh, I'm a bit confused.
What I meant by "burn" was I would establish a network of GPS control in my region before the LS towers arrived so I could "weather the storm" so to speak.
I'm not saying I would sabotage the construction of LS towers. LOL but apparently you're considering it...
Please educate me... yes, please do that.
I hear a lot of fear speaking but just hype to back it up...
is it a given that there is not enough band width to support GPS? Is ther e something that I can read to support this?
I hear lots of hype from both sides, and I assume that it is just more "chicken little" crud.
> Ahh, I'm a bit confused.
>
> What I meant by "burn" was I would establish a network of GPS control in my region before the LS towers arrived so I could "weather the storm" so to speak.
>
> I'm not saying I would sabotage the construction of LS towers. LOL but apparently you're considering it...
No, that is not my intention. I am sorry for being confused by your post. That has always just been a running joke with a guy on my field crew. It was joked when we saw another surveyor's traverse points to "pull them out". I stated "Don't pull them, just move them, that will mess with them more."
Once again, I have never done this nor will I ever. It was simply meant as a joke between guys who spend way too much time in the woods alone together. I have had to bury traverse points to keep neighbors and kids from pulling them out many times.
As Tommy Young stated,
> some functions which are easily done with GPS will be passed over as not being worth the additional costs. Surveying in general will still be done as it was prior to GPS.
>
> While I truly like having my GPS units as a tool to use when they will save time, my more immediate concern would be the impact on agriculture.
>
> One local farm operation just spent several hundreds of thousands in upgrades and are running the precision units which will be affected. Now I am not a farmer, so don't take this as gospel, but one of the reasons food costs are where they are currently at is the continuing efficiency of farmers in getting the most return from a crop. That entails keeping costs down. As I understand it, there is a SIGNIFICANT savings to be realized in fertilizer and seed when a tractor is using GPS.
I never realized GPS control was used for farm machinery. Wow!!! I guess I have been out of the loop for quite a while. I left the construction industry just as they were getting into the machine control. They were one of the first companies (too my knowledge) that purchased this in our area. That has only been 7 short years. I am really out of the loop on the new technology.
Newton,
I am going to start doing that this winter in my area. May as well...ratherr be prepared that not.
Joe