"The road is graded (it is dirt) by the County & has a County name but it is not a County road. The road was surveyed & the property line down it's centerline was monumented but the irones that marked the lines were claimed by the County motor grader long ago."
I would question the status of the road.
There is public use, and long standing maintenance with public funds.
The county has given it a name, which indicates they think it's a county road.
What makes you think this isn't a county road?
When 911 addressing came to our county it became essential for every mailbox and every parcel on the GIS map in the Appraisers Office to be tied to a road of some name. A nearby unofficial subdivision had about twenty tracts following the shoreline of a 30-surface acre lake. The only way in and out was via a long, twisty, poorly maintained by the owners, rocky, dirt lane that started at the county road, went all the way around the lake and returned to the same county road. Miraculously, two road signs appeared reading West Lake Drive and East Lake Drive. The residents gained new addresses. It is still one hundred percent private, but you wouldn't think so by reading the signs.
Don't park in a Parkway, please!
Holy Cow, post: 399200, member: 50 wrote: When 911 addressing came to our county it became essential for every mailbox and every parcel on the GIS map in the Appraisers Office to be tied to a road of some name. A nearby unofficial subdivision had about twenty tracts following the shoreline of a 30-surface acre lake. The only way in and out was via a long, twisty, poorly maintained by the owners, rocky, dirt lane that started at the county road, went all the way around the lake and returned to the same county road. Miraculously, two road signs appeared reading West Lake Drive and East Lake Drive. The residents gained new addresses. It is still one hundred percent private, but you wouldn't think so by reading the signs.
Our planning department issues/approves private road names. Anybody living along the road can come to the county and purchase a metal sign post and reflective sign to mark the road. They look like any other street sign.
Yea, since the advent of 911, every rabbit path has a road name.
Wow, I thought I was tracking this post but got no notice that there were any replies. The need to read the deed(s) is a given. I knew I had more research to do but was hoping to get a "Heads up" of what to expect & I did. Thanks a lot everybody, the comments are a big help. I did get a copy of the deed. Talk about coincidence. I haven't heard from my mentor, Mr. LeRoy E. Lewis, since I worked for the US Forest Service in the 70's but his name is on the adjoining plat of the tract subdivided from the tract I am surveying buy the road, which is dated 9/10/83. The deed of the adjoiner calls for the centerline of the road as the boundary but it also calls for Mr. Lewis's plat. There was another plat dated 1/18/92 of my client's tract. Both plats define the centerline of the road by bearings & distances but the Lewis survey did not monument the centerline of the road. The 1992 survey did but the motor grader got the irons. Both plats show pretty much the same lines but I set offset, reference irons on the side of the road by the 1992 plat since it was monumented. (so the motor grader wouldn't get them). There is also fencing pretty much along the sides of the road. The deed also calls for a "24' easement or right of way". Isn't it nice when the deed is ambiguous? Quite often, the attorney either doesn't know what he is doing or doesn't care. You are sometimes lucky if they spell the County name correctly & use the right unit of measurement. Gross discrepancies between between areas calculated by their metes & bounds descriptions & the area conveyed is common. Anyway, neither plat references the easement or right of way in the deed. The road apparently has a 24 foot R/W. I am of the opinion, at this point, the boundary is the centerline of the road as it existed at the date of the original conveyance, which is best represented by the 1992 survey, which is in part, a retracement of the 1983 Lewis survey.
I was attracted to the comments by Mr. Harris. His comments are very true, unfortunately, here in S.C., there is often nothing to mark the location of the road R/W except the road itself. About 90% of the time, the County or the State will use the C/L of pavement to locate the R/W. The problem is that the road is not always constructed in the center of the R/W & additional R/W is often acquired. I once had a Town tell me that the R/W on my plat was wrong. The R/W belongs to the State of S.C. & the State said it was 60 ft. The Town said it was 75 ft.. I said, " no problem, but I have to document what I put on my plat as it is a legal document, where can I find some documentation?" They said they would write me a letter. I replied that I was responsible for what I put on my plat & I needed to know how they acquired the 75' R/W. Well, by the time their lawyer told them I was right & their engineer told them I was right, the real estate deal fell through. My client said he should have sued the Town but he never did.
In New York State, trucks are allowed on expressways but not parkways.
I really like the East Coast idea of having car only roads (no trucks) or the New Jersey Turnpike which has car only lanes.
imaudigger, post: 399196, member: 7286 wrote: "The road is graded (it is dirt) by the County & has a County name but it is not a County road. The road was surveyed & the property line down it's centerline was monumented but the irones that marked the lines were claimed by the County motor grader long ago."
I would question the status of the road.
There is public use, and long standing maintenance with public funds.
The county has given it a name, which indicates they think it's a county road.
What makes you think this isn't a county road?
It is a private road created by the land owners. There is no dedication, no County road number & it is not constructed to State or County standards. The County grades it as a community service. Here, such a road is usually classified as an unimproved community road. It is more or less a driveway that serves several land owners. The minimum width of a county rd. is 50', this rd. only has a 24' easement for ingress & egress by the land owners. I don't think the County wants it because if they incorporate it in their system, they will have to maintain it & possibly construct it. Title is conveyed to the centerline. It is still, more or less, a farm road.
Interesting. Your county road department must be flush with cash. That's how it was around here 75 years ago.
Dave Karoly, post: 400223, member: 94 wrote: In New York State, trucks are allowed on expressways but not parkways.
I really like the East Coast idea of having car only roads (no trucks) or the New Jersey Turnpike which has car only lanes.
In a pavement seminar I attended once, the statistic was given that a fully loaded semi-truck did as much damage to the roadway as 50,000 passenger cars!
Railway is where it is at in my opinion. It would be much better for the environment.
Not sure if the funds would be there to maintain the roads for light vehicles only.
imaudigger, post: 400257, member: 7286 wrote: Interesting. Your county road department must be flush with cash. That's how it was around here 75 years ago.
To begin with, it's not my road or my county, I'm just the surveyor. I don't think the county here has a lot of money & there is still a little environment that hasn't been paved yet.
imaudigger, post: 400258, member: 7286 wrote: In a pavement seminar I attended once, the statistic was given that a fully loaded semi-truck did as much damage to the roadway as 50,000 passenger cars!
Railway is where it is at in my opinion. It would be much better for the environment.
Not sure if the funds would be there to maintain the roads for light vehicles only.
GEOMETRIC, post: 400288, member: 8346 wrote:
Yes, that's very true. A vehicle has to be heavy enough to flex the pavement to do much damage. A passenger car or a pickup truck doesn't weigh enough but an 18 wheeler does. That is why the trucks are regulated so strictly for weight & why they are taxed so much. They do the bulk of the damage! The district engineer for the U.S. Forest Service in S.C. once said, "A road that will stand up to heavy log truck traffic for a matter of weeks will stand up to normal pickup truck traffic forever."
BTW, I also agree with you about the R/R. It is much more efficient. Trucks are best used for short distance hauling & highly perishable products where necessary. Like the old saw goes, "It's all about money" & in a lot of cases, also greed. The R/R's seem to be making a comeback, however.
There are too many possible variables to this question. It's very situational. I have came across some situations like this where you had no choice but to hold asbuilt centerline, especially on an improved roadway. I would first look at records to see what other surveyors in the area have done in the past. I would look for any other corners/monuments that may help in the retracement of your survey. if you are truly confident that the road doesn't match the Plat or deed, or changed position over the years, then I might recommend holding Plat or deed and show the location of the road on your map. If it's questionable you need to bring that up to your client. Most of my clients would rather know there was an issue, or something questionable and fix it so it doesn't resurface at the worst possible time.
I'm sure it's different in other states, or if you work in the public or private sector.
I don't think you have read the question and the replies. The answer hinges on a legal interpretation of the deed &, IMHO, the line is the centerline of the road as it existed at the time of the conveyance. That is documented by the two recorded plats. Another approach is to show everything & state everything you did & the references used & let the shisters worry about the legal technicalities. That is what I am doing but I am also going to do my best to get it right. I can't recall who said it but it has been said in so many words, "ignorance of the law is no excuse, we are all presumed to know the law, but when the best legal minds in the nation come to a 4-5 decision, that is the law & it has always been the law and you should have known it!"
