A mentor once told me “words do mean something” right before opening a copy of Black’s law Dictionary to discuss the content of a legal description.
I noticed in a [msg=235448]post below[/msg], a record of survey utilized the term "Old" numerous times to describe found/accepted monuments. I noticed that the monuments were set in 1984, which by my usual definition, does not constitute “Old”. This prompted me to research the meaning of the word further.
“Fnd. old Iron Rod” could mean one or all of the following;
1.) The iron rod is of long standing existence.
2.) The iron rod is being distinguished from the other iron rods by being of an earlier date.
3.) The iron rod is rusty and corroded showing the characteristic of age and the effects of time.
Because it is such a short statement, we don’t have much indication of the exact usage.
This leads me to question why the found/accepted (un-marked) rods are being labeled as “Old” and what it means.
The Merriam Webster’s definition for the related term “Ancient” is much narrower.
Primary Definition: “having had an existence of many years”.
Black’s Law Dictionary defines Ancient as “Old; that which has existed from an indefinitely early period, or which by age alone has acquired certain rights or privileges accorded in view of long continuance.”
Would “Ancient” be a more appropriate term to use in describing found unmarked monuments that are, at least partially, being honored based upon long standing existence/acceptance (old roads or improvements supporting location)? Would one have to prove the age of a monument before labeling it as “Ancient” vs. calling something “Old”?
I’m asking this from a legal stand point based upon sheer curiosity. I come here mostly to learn and sometimes for entertainment.
It seems that if you can prove something is ancient, it would carry more weight than simply being labeled as old (potentially just rusty in appearance).
How often is the term "Ancient" used to describe found monuments?
> I noticed in a [msg=235448]post below[/msg], a record of survey utilized the term "Old" numerous times to describe found/accepted monuments. I noticed that the monuments were set in 1984, which by my usual definition, does not constitute “Old”. This prompted me to research the meaning of the word further.
When applied to ferrous survey markers, "old" means to me that the appearance of the marker is consistent with its supposed age. It isn't new or of an appearance obviously inconsistent with having been in place in that setting for the intervening years.
In that sense "old" is a shorthand for observed physical properties.
When applied to fences, I use the term "old" to mean of a character and apparent age consistent either with having been built more or less contemporaneously with the boundary or corner that it is thought to be evidence of or at a time when that boundary is thought to have been known. The distinction is between fences that can be plausibly considered to perpetuate a location of a line that had been surveyed and marked and those that were built at a time when that is unlikely.
I don't use the term "ancient" simply because I can estimate the age of most fences and because no barbed wire fences have been in place since time immemorial. "Ancient" when applied to a boundary monument always sounds to me like a way of dressing up "old" to make something sound more convincing. If you've found an old iron pipe of no known provenance, that's how I'd describe it. It'll never be an "ancient" iron monument to me.
I'm a fan of "old" and "very old" but not of "ancient". The first survey monument in my home county was set in about 1865. That's not quite 150 years. To me, that does not qualify as ancient.
Normally when I use the term old or very old to describe something it is because there is something to use in comparison. An example from today's work is that I used the term "old corner post" to describe where a PK nail had been placed to use as a reference for future surveyors to locate the quarter corner monument we had just found. There was a "newer" corner post in place about 15 feet further in the same direction from our quarter corner monument which supported a fence running to the east, while my "old" corner post supported a fence running to the west.
We had a job several years ago where within a fairly small area there was what the locals referred to as "the new highway", "the old highway", "the old, old highway" and the "first road".
"I don't use the term "ancient" simply because.....no barbed wire fences have been in place since time immemorial...."
It appears you primarily associate the term "ancient" with the secondary usage..(as do I).
"Old" has quite a few usages...
Typically I would never question the meaning of "Old".
But old compared to what? I'm old compared to 1984.
The fact that there were 1/2 in. (dia.) iron rods being set on three different surveys had me thinking that the "Old" ones were presumed to be from the earliest survey...OR were just old looking. You would think one of the two later surveyors would have thought to set a monument of different character rather than continuing to set 1/2" iron rods with plastic caps that will undoubtedly fall off once they get..old.
> It appears you primarily associate the term "ancient" with the secondary usage..(as do I).
When I hear something pertaining to land matters described as "ancient", I assume that it is English land tenures that are under discussion. The Doctrine of Ancient Lights has a distinctly un-American ring. "Ancient ways" might work in parts of New England, but probably not in most of America West of the Mississippi.
old is not defined as an adjective in Blacks Law Dic.
Black Law Dic. 8th
ancient, adj. Evidence. Having existed for a long time without interruption, usu. at least 20 to 30 years . Ancient items are usu. presumed to be valid even if proof of validity cannot be made.
Interesting how the definition has changed since the 4th edition.
the ages of old and ancient is likely to be a regional defination.
"ancient", in arizona, is not as "ancient" as determined by you colonials.
for me, ancient will refer to what appears to be the initial establishment of either a fence or road, barely more than 100 years possible. i have used "ancient" for comparison to what is only "old".
new is too new to qualify as a long term line of possession, or less than 10 years.
i hope black's book won't mind my interpretation
I would take ancient fence to mean one presumed to have been built from the original monuments, particularly where the original monuments were victims of the fence construction.
I would take old fence to mean an old fence of unknown origin which may or may not be evidence of the original boundary.
Look. It is simple. I am OLD. Kent is ANCIENT. Now do you see??? 😛
> I would take ancient fence to mean one presumed to have been built from the original monuments, particularly where the original monuments were victims of the fence construction.
So basically what you're saying is you're willing to dress up an old fence that appears to have been built to some line originally surveyed and in the process destroying the marks of that survey by calling it "ancient"? Doesn't that sound a little odd when the fence was built in 1940 or 1950?
It seems to me that you'd need to make some sort of estimate of the actual age of the fence before deciding whether or not it most likely perpetuates some survey. The presumption that, say, a 30-year-old fence perpetuates a line surveyed 130 years ago, for example wouldn't ordinarily pass the laugh test absent some other evidence.
I'm not sure, sitting here, how I'd personally define "ancient", but if I find an apparently contiguous fence running through the middle of several large hardwoods, that'd qualify for me.
If evidence is granted additional weight based upon being old or even ancient, there should be some sort of documentation in the surveyor's report or notes backing up the conclusion? Something to the effect that it fits calls made in the 1850 survey notes on file at ?? and is consistent with the materials and construction of that time period. Otherwise it is potentially irrelevant and likely subjective depending on the locality and the experience of the surveyor.
> I'm not sure, sitting here, how I'd personally define "ancient", but if I find an apparently contiguous fence running through the middle of several large hardwoods, that'd qualify for me.
Well, if it's a barbed wire fence, to begin with, the odds are it dates from after 1880. You can examine the pattern of wire to get a better idea of probable age, but you'd have to cut into the tree to see how many annual rings there are after the fence was stapled to the tree. If you ever find barbed wire running through the center of a live oak in Central Texas, the likely explanation is that cordless drills were involved. :>
In Texas, the fact that nobody knows who built the fence or for what purpose actually works against considering it as other than a convenience fence. So, getting a good estimate of the age of the fence to be able to say with some justification that it was built around the time that a line was run by a surveyor is worth the effort.
A fence built in 1940 or 1950 is probably not ancient.
OH OH OH I FEEL BULLIED!!!
"Ancient" is an actual legal term in many jurisdictions, and as Blacks seems to reflect, it is related to the statute of limitations for real estate matters, 21 years or so in many states. It's best for surveyors to understand the term as it relates to evidence which may be found in the course of a boundary survey.
To a court, it is a matter of fact as to the age of a fence or party wall, and the facts will be developed by testimony. If the facts show that it was in place for 21 years (or whatever the statute of limitations for real estate matters is in the jurisdiction) the court may apply the law and consider the item to be "ancient" even though we as surveyors would not even consider it to be old.
> If evidence is granted additional weight based upon being old or even ancient, there should be some sort of documentation in the surveyor's report or notes backing up the conclusion? Something to the effect that it fits calls made in the 1850 survey notes on file at ?? and is consistent with the materials and construction of that time period. Otherwise it is potentially irrelevant and likely subjective depending on the locality and the experience of the surveyor.
Well, in Texas unless you're looking at a fence in a historic district of a city, the odds are an old fence is a post and barbed wire fence, possibly with some fabric to keep sheep and goats in the pasture. Among the observations worth noting are:
- Material of posts. Are they a material that was only available after a certain date, such as cedar posts in mesquite country only after a railroad arrived?
- Tool marks. Axe cut? Chain saw marks? Sawed?
- Wire. Wire usually found on fences of a specific period? State of corrosion?
- Construction details. How are braces joined? Steel pipes in drilled recesses in posts? Wood braces in axe-cut scarfs in posts? Cut nails? Wire Nails? Staples?
> OH OH OH I FEEL BULLIED!!!
LOL! I used the term "ancient" to describe very old wire fences from the 1880's at one time, but finally decided that it was better to give an estimate of the date of construction since that was easier to connect to a boundary established around that date.
