NCEES To Go Closed Book On The Principles Of Surveying Exam

I think I would have passed it even if it had been closed book.

Well, it was nearly 30 years ago, but my licensing exam was open book. I brought a huge box of stuff in and I think the whole time I used it exactly once to look up one formula. I suppose the box was a comforting teddy bear to have nearby though. Seriously, having the books handy may calm down competent but over-anxious surveyors and maybe bail them out when that anxiety causes a brain cramp. Given the time constraints the books won't rescue the unready.

The real professional world is open book and the better professional exam ought to be, too.

Every exam I took was closed book, but one. The exam that was open book did not allow time to look up what was needed to answer the question anyway. Like stated above, lugged in a lot of books that was a waste of effort. These were not NCEES based exams either. They were all narrative type, written by members of the State licensing board and no multiple choice type questions. Lots of cslculation and written out answers. You needed to know the formulas in your head in order to answer many questions, curves, hydraulics, trig functions, etc. Tough exams.

Books are definitely useful in an exam if you have prepped the books just like you prepped yourself.

My books were tabbed so I could quickly find what I needed. They are only useful as a quick reference; there is no time to read a whole chapter, obviously.

I brought less than most but only really referred to a book a few times and then only a couple of the books out of all I brought.

> I think I would have passed it even if it had been closed book.

Dennis, I think I would have too.

I never took a NCEES text, I sat for testing before the change. Many of the original class of license seekers were processed by oral exam in front of a panel of the BOR members asking the questions from a list and even out of the blue.

The principals test was closed book as all 4 parts were. There were so many sources that the answers came from (some very limited copies) and a few that were not in any book. Had to be fortunate to have been in the right class at the right time on one or two questions.

We would have had to wheel in a personal library. There was barely enough room on the table for our pencils, a few sheets of scratch paper.

The only difference of test I know is that the test is standardized and the same questions are given to everyone nationwide, except a few for state and local requirements.

There are open book tests that are given to show how familiar a person is at research and knowing how and what and where to find information. I do not think a state exam for knowing the basic principal of surveying was meant to be open book.

the format of the current open book test is such that one could arguably pass it immediately upon graduation from a college survey program. Honestly, the typically requisite 4 yrs of experience doesn't seem to enter into the test format, other than being a requirement to take the test in the first place. I'm def in favor of changing the format in some manner, though i don't see any tangible benefit for anyone but NCEES by going to a closed book format. Both the PS & PE exams will eventually be done on computers - inside of 10 yrs I'd wager

Paul, Do you think this due to NCEES going Computer-Based-Testing and desk top room is limited? It may be as the FE and FS exams are scheduled for 2013. And maybe the technology will allow for PDF book availability as a lookup during the exam.

i'm with butch, either you know it or you don't--they changed it in nh before i took it, but i liked the face to face aspect with the board, a real world problem exibits true skill of the answer giver--their true intelligence comes through, but in my heart of hearts few would pass and would not fit the dumbed down model expected today--tdd

Good Point Rick

The Fundamentals of Engineering will be the first computer based exam and that is already closed book. I don't know where all the computers are coming from, the FE takers number in the tens of thousands. Perhaps some new cheap (large screen) palmtop type with no keyboard. Perhaps they will include an HP 35 emulator program.

Paul in PA

Of Interest Is The NCEES New Policy On Education Credentials

NCEES has created a new policy on evaluating foreign degrees and degrees from non-ABET US colleges. Presently the State Boards must decide.

NCEES will do all foreign degree program evaluation.

If you have a technical degree from a non-ABET US college and subsequently get a Masters or PHD from a university that has an ABET bachelors program NCEES will evaluate the MS/PHD (graduate programs do not receive ABET accreditation). This will not help surveyors much but there will soon be a push for an MS in oder to get the PE.

The only one I know such a policy would have helped was Professor Joshua Greenfeld retired from NJIT. Josh had a BS from Tel Aviv University, and an MS and PhD from Ohio State. When he applied to the State of New Jersey for licensure he was told the law required a BS from an accredited institution.

Paul in PA

Of Interest Is The NCEES New Policy On Education Credentials

I had to look up one question. If I remember correctly it was a GIS term that I hadn't heard before. Otherwise it was the easiest test I took to get my licenses. The Arkie test was open book but there was no time to look anything up whereas the Texas test was closed book and I finished two hours early. It the Texas test were open book I would have used every second.

Good Point Rick

chances are that if/when ncees moves to computerized testing, the tests will offered multiple months of the year, multiple weeks a month. Thats how MI administers its state specific portion of the PS, which is on a computer. The number of FE/PE test takers compared to FS/PS is probably greater than 10-1 ratio. As a mentor mentioned to me once, engineers are pretty much a dime a dozen - the numbers support that, as does the cookie-cutter state reciprocity they are generally given. FWIW, i took & passed the civil FE 6 mo. after passing the FS. I'm unsure on if I'll ever sit for the PE exam, all the moreso in this economy. Besides, I already got one license that ain't doin jack for me...:-P

All of mine were closed book. 2000 and 2002. I could have a 48 though, but I used a 42'mostly.

I haven't read all the replies to this post so pardon me if I repeat somebody else's thoughts. A timed exam with the goal of testing a surveyor, open or closed book, is kind of a crap shoot. Our job isn't one that involves snap decisions, usually. A candidate with more experience in test-taking is not necessarily the one that the public needs in a licensed capacity as a land surveyor.

So!

What all the people on here that think they could have passed anyways......closed book!!

Is you know everything there. Is to know about:

FEMA

Alta/ascm

NGS

Every formula

Every legal definition known to man!!

!!!!!

I don't think so!!!!

Heh, and your foreign degree is from where?

No, I am basing it on the fact that I barely used the books, and the couple of times that I did use the books I found out that I already had the correct answer.

Is that really so hard to believe?

The fundamentals exam was closed book, and I passed that the first time.

Without Any Books I Would Have Passed

But my score was high enough that I could have missed 15% more questions. I would have passed but with a lower score, don't think that would have made me feel confident about myself.

Sometimes it is important to just know where to look for the answers. The exact answer itself is less important.

The problem with multiple dates is that it gives a greater opportunity to cheat. Suppose Joe Joe gets approval to sit as Jo Jo in Arkansas and 1 month later sits again in Kentucky? One advantage of computers is that every computer could very easily have the exact same questions in different order. In fact the order would not even be selected until a test takers code is first entered.

Paul in PA