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My new Wild T2

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(@geeoddmike)
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@john-nolton ?ÿ

While I hope that everyone reading my posts will carefully read them; sometimes I do not do so myself. Your explanation is fine. I did get confused by your use of the 45 degree angle as this is a circle setting. I now see you use ƒ??45d23m56sƒ? and not 45d.

I had wanted to show how/when the plate settings changes for multiple readings take place. Your example was for one set.

Lest anyone think that each circle starts with telescope direct, I attempted to show that (in the four position case and using degrees only) we make circle setting changes after returning to our first target.

Ignoring pointings to the other sites and only showing values to the first target and only to degrees, we will have:

set 1

D 000d

R 180d

change circle to 225d

set 2

R 225d

D 045d

change circle to 90d

set 3

D 090d

R 270d

change circle to 315d

set 4

R 315d

D 135d

BTW, I do not see the difference between your reference for circle settings and SP 47. Of course, I did get a note from my optometrist saying I am overdue for new glassesƒ??

 
Posted : 06/04/2022 10:37 am
(@geeoddmike)
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@john-nolton?ÿ

I contacted NGS webmaster to get the document posted. Will advise. Cheers.

 
Posted : 06/04/2022 10:55 am
(@john-nolton)
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@geeoddmike?ÿ ?ÿI like you BTW remark. I gave 2 references and can give many more.?ÿ

Back in the early 70's I was working for a Large Civil Service Org. I found out that doing night work with the Wild T3 they would always turn the scope back to the direct position to start the next set. They had never been schooled on the easy and fast way; of which I did school them. Before I taught them the easy and fast way I offered them a bet; I can turn faster directions than anyone of them. I had NO takers. I only used one set to show how to record and turn directions which Shawn said he had not done before. The next lesson is to show?ÿAS YOU HAVE DONE how too turn many sets with the different circle settings and how to record them (the term "book them" is used in some places), mean them. I will also show how to turn Zenith angles that I came up with in 1963 that was not put in the manual till the middle of the 70; that I know of.

 
Posted : 06/04/2022 12:29 pm
(@john-nolton)
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@geeoddmike?ÿ Thanks for that.

 
Posted : 06/04/2022 12:31 pm
(@gene-kooper)
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A question for John Nolton. In your procedure for measuring one angle, you start in Face I, point to the back sight, turn clockwise to the fore sight (both times the slow-motion tangent screw is turned clockwise (into the spring); followed by inverting the telescope (Face II) and turning counter-clockwise to the fore sight and counter-clockwise again to the back sight.

I'm probably doing it all wrong by always turning clockwise whether I'm in Face I or Face II.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on why turning the direction theodolite clockwise for direct readings and counter-clockwise for inverse readings is the preferred method.

P.S. Thanks for pointing out that the last movement of the slow-motion tangent screw should be clockwise. As explained by an old mentor, that is preferred because the spring in the tangent screw is being compressed. If the last motion is counter-clockwise then the spring is being released which can produce less accurate pointings.

 
Posted : 06/04/2022 2:40 pm
(@dmyhill)
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Posted by: @shawn-billings

I just ran the inflation calculator from 1972 to 2020 (I don't think we really know what the current inflation is, so I backed up a couple of years). In 1972, $4,000 would be equal to $25,000 in 2020. Likewise in 1972, $12,000 would be roughly $75,000 today.

THRAC alert!

It is 2022, so you need to pump those numbers up quite a bit!

If a Chevy Blazer cost $4000 at the time, an equivalent in power, off-road and capacity...which you cant buy it anymore...so standing in is the cheapest new 4x4 Chevy pickup I could find in the USA... costs $34k.

A top of the line, brand new Leica robotic total station, FTL lists at $23k...FTL has a Leica GS18 I and controller for $30k.

Perhaps top of the line total stations are deal now!

 
Posted : 06/04/2022 3:02 pm
(@john-nolton)
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Posted by: @gene-kooper

A question for John Nolton. In your procedure for measuring one angle, you start in Face I, point to the back sight, turn clockwise to the fore sight (both times the slow-motion tangent screw is turned clockwise (into the spring); followed by inverting the telescope (Face II) and turning counter-clockwise to the fore sight and counter-clockwise again to the back sight.

I'm probably doing it all wrong by always turning clockwise whether I'm in Face I or Face II.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on why turning the direction theodolite clockwise for direct readings and counter-clockwise for inverse readings is the preferred method.

P.S. Thanks for pointing out that the last movement of the slow-motion tangent screw should be clockwise. As explained by an old mentor, that is preferred because the spring in the tangent screw is being compressed. If the last motion is counter-clockwise then the spring is being released which can produce less accurate pointings.

Gene the theory about turning clockwise and then counterclockwise is: when you turn one way with the theodolite?ÿtorque might build up. So turning the opposite way you will relieve the?ÿtorque.

 
Posted : 06/04/2022 3:40 pm
(@gene-kooper)
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@john-nolton It was explained to me that turning the instrument only in a clockwise direction would create a uniform "torque" in the tripod and/or tribrach that would eliminate this small systematic error.

In this case, we have an avid new owner wanting to turn some angles. So if Shawn is up for it, he can turn 16 or 32 sets of angles with clockwise/counter-clockwise rotations for the direct and inverse readings (you have to do this with a parasol or at night Shawn) followed by the same number of sets with all angles being turned in a clockwise direction. This does not mean that you have been voluntold without notice, Shawn! 🙂

If I were to guess, I'd say that either method will produce similar results on a T2. If there are any differences, my guess is that you'd need to use a T3 to see the small differences.

 
Posted : 06/04/2022 4:00 pm
(@john-nolton)
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@gene-kooper?ÿ I can only tell you what the?ÿTheory?ÿsays. I have no data to show you. I can say this that from my post above to now (in time) I looked in my Wild T2 manual ( new style T2) and on page 31 says "As only two targets are sighted measuring time is short, thus systematic errors from residual changes in the verticality of the standing axis and twisting of the tripod can practically be avoided".

I have old journals that the theory was presented in, but I do not have the time to look for the article. I will find one about different oil/grease used and errors that can happen. I will post that soon.

 
Posted : 06/04/2022 4:24 pm
(@gene-kooper)
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Thanks John.

 
Posted : 06/04/2022 4:34 pm
(@shelby-h-griggs-pls)
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Congratulations Shawn, that was a good looking T2. Yes, good meeting face to face again, well attended conference.

SHG

 
Posted : 06/04/2022 7:46 pm
(@firestix)
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Wow.?ÿ What a blast from the past!?ÿ ?ÿI learned to survey on these instruments in the early '90s at Ft. Belvoir VA.?ÿ If I remember correctly, the bubble on these things were so sensitive that the sun played havoc with it.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ

 
Posted : 07/04/2022 11:59 am
(@geeoddmike)
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Should you take up the suggestion to actually turn multiple sets of angles, you might want to observe to intersection stations published by the NGS.

While your profile only identifies your location as east Texas, I took the liberty of retrieving some information for the city of Houston.

You can readily find these intersection stations via the NGS Map and get an overview of the geodetic control using the diagrams available in the link below.

While there are many intersection stations in the data base, remember that Houston is in a subsidence area, and that tanks, radio masts, church spires, etc could have been changed or destroyed then first positioned. Also carefully read the description to determine the point observed.

Given good geometry, observing at least four sites (and watching for ƒ??swingersƒ? ) you can determine your position with checks. Follow the example in the USC&GS SP 47.

Links follow:

https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/data/survey_maps/gcdmap/ - page showing CONUS searchable for your area of interest

https://geodesy.noaa.gov/library/pdfs/Special_Publication_No_247.pdf ?ÿ- see the section titled ƒ??Special Angle Computationƒ? digital page 194 of 361.

https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/data/survey_maps/gcdmap/pdfs/Texas/Houston_Texas_NH_15_7.pdf ?ÿ ?ÿ - geodetic control diagram showing Houston area

8FEE32E2 555A 4B1D ABCF 10DC7D8AD8EB
726E89BB FF80 487D 8C9E 609AE1E60C99
E9D15703 ED82 44DB B944 ED9817577FA4

Even more interesting would be to eccentrically occupy an NGS monument and do the reduction to center computation.

Working with ƒ??realƒ? data helps validate your work.

 
Posted : 07/04/2022 6:26 pm
(@shawn-billings)
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@beer-legs I just checked. It's a DM-S2. I don't recall which model Dad had, I think a 3. It had slope reduction, I do recall that. This S2 has slope reduction also, but it doesn't look quite like what I remember Dad's looking like. I haven't tried turning it on yet. I wonder if I can re-cell the batteries for it.

 
Posted : 08/04/2022 4:35 am
(@john-hamilton)
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@geeoddmike?ÿ

You are correct, I had forgotten that each even round starts with the scope reversed, and should be 135 instead of 45, for example.?ÿ

 
Posted : 08/04/2022 5:14 am
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